LecturePreviousRoom Conversation on Bhagavad-gītā 6.11–14Next

Participants:

PrabhupādaDevoteeDevotee (1)Devotee (2)Devotee (3)GaurasundaraGovinda dāsīPradyumnaŚyāmasundara

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Prabhupāda: [Śrīla Prabhupāda leads chanting of verses and devotees repeat]

…loka-trayasya mahatīm aharad yad ārtiṁ
svāyambhuvena manunā harir ity anūktaḥ
[Bhāg. 2.7.2]

jajñe ca kardama-gṛhe dvija devahūtyāṁ
strībhiḥ samaṁ navabhir ātma-gatiṁ sva-mātre
ūce yayātma-śamalaṁ guṇa-saṅga-paṅkam
asmin vidhūya kapilasya gatiṁ prapede
[Bhāg. 2.7.3]

Then next.

atrer apatyam abhikāṅkṣata āha tuṣṭo
datto mayāham iti yad bhagavān sa dattaḥ
yat-pāda-paṅkaja-parāga-pavitra-dehā
yogarddhim āpur ubhayīṁ yadu-haihayādyāḥ
[Bhāg. 2.7.4]

Repeat. Try to pronounce. One by one. No, no, one word after. They can practice.

[Pradyumna now chants one word at a time, then the line, then whole verse, etc., with other devotees repeating. Prabhupāda prompts and assists as devotees struggle.]

atrer apatyam abhikāṅkṣata āha tuṣṭo
datto mayāham iti yad bhagavān sa dattaḥ
yat-pāda-paṅkaja-parāga-pavitra-dehā
yogarddhim āpur ubhayīṁ yadu-haihayādyāḥ
[Bhāg. 2.7.4]

Prabhupāda: Yogarddhim āpur ubhayīṁ. Yogarddhim: here is the speciality of devotees. Yat-pāda-paṅkaja-parāga-pavitra-dehā: one who is engaged in the service of the lotus feet of the Lord, their body becomes so pure that all the perfection of yoga automatically comes there. Yogarddhim āpur ubhayīṁ. Not only for the next life; this life also. They are not to be considered as poor and hungry. No. Everything is there, ubhayīṁ. But how? Yat-pāda-paṅkaja-parāga-pavitra-dehā. The paṅkaja, the lotus flower, there is saffron dust. So one who takes shelter of the lotus flower, lotus feet of the Lord, that saffron naturally mixes with this body, so immediately he becomes sanctified. Yogarddhim means “sanctified body.”Yoga, so aṇimā, first aṇimā, to make this body light. So practically there is no influence of the body. Just like a dead man becomes heavy. Do you know that? You weigh a living man, and the same man, when he is dead, he becomes heavy. Have you got this experience?

Devotee: No.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Even when they are sleeping? A sleeping cat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So the more you become spiritualized, so the material heaviness is diminished. Yat-pāda-paṅkaja-parāga-pavitra-dehā. Now read the translation.

Pradyumna: “The great sage Atri prayed for offspring, and the Lord, being satisfied with him, promised to incarnate as Atri's son, Dattātreya [Datta, the son of Atri]. And by the grace of the lotus feet of the Lord, many Yadus, Haihayas, etc., became so purified that they obtained both material and spiritual blessings.”

Prabhupāda: Go on.

Pradyumna: Purport: “Transcendental relations between the Personality of Godhead and the living entities are eternally established in five different affectionate humors, which are known as śānta, dāsya, sakhya, vātsalya and mādhurya. The sage Atri was related with the Lord in the affectionate vātsalya humor, and therefore, as a result of his devotional perfection, he was inclined to have the Personality of Godhead as his son. The Lord accepted his prayer, and He gave Himself as the son of Ātreya.”

Prabhupāda: Who can be equal to Him? He wanted, “I want son like You.” So where is another person like Him? So He said, “I shall become. I am your son.”

Pradyumna: “Such a relation of son-hood between the Lord and His pure devotees can be cited in many instances. And because the Lord is unlimited, He has an unlimited number of father-devotees. Factually, the Lord is the father of all living entities, but out of transcendental affection and love between the Lord and His devotees, the Lord takes more pleasure in becoming the son of a devotee than in becoming one’s father. The father actually serves the son, whereas the son only demands all sorts of services from the father. Therefore a pure devotee...”

Prabhupāda: This philosophy is only in Vaiṣṇava philosophy: to accept God as son. In other religions, they accept God as father; but here is a philosophy they accept God as son. Because to accept God as son means to give Him more service. Son takes service from the father: “Give us our daily bread.” But the father gives the son daily bread. That is more valuable. If I take from you something, that is not very good; if I give you something, that is good. So to become father of God means to give everything. Even the state, even his money, his bank balance, everything. That is the idea. And to become son of God means to take everything. Hmm. Then?

Pradyumna: “The father actually serves the son, whereas the son only demands all sorts of services from the father. Therefore a pure devotee who is always inclined to serve the Lord wants Him as the son, and not as the father. The Lord also accepts such service from the devotee, and thus the devotee becomes more than the Lord. The impersonalists desire to become one with the Supreme, but the devotee becomes more than the Lord, surpassing the desire of the greatest monist. Parents and other relatives of the Lord achieve all mystical opulences automatically because of their intimate relationship with the Lord. Such opulences include all details of material enjoyment, salvation and mystic powers. Therefore the devotee of the Lord does not seek them separately, wasting his valuable time in life. The valuable time of one’s life must therefore be fully engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord. Then other desirable achievements are automatically gained. But even after obtaining such achievements, one should be on guard against the pitfall of offenses at the feet of the devotees. The vivid example is Haihaya, who achieved all such perfection in devotional service but, because of his offense at the feet of a devotee, was killed by Lord Paraśurāma. The Lord became the son of the great sage Atri and became known as Dattātreya.”

Prabhupāda: Datta means “given,” and Ātreya Ṛṣi. So discuss any points.

Pradyumna: Gaurasundara is here.

Prabhupāda: Na te... So, you want to become father of Kṛṣṇa? Hm.

Gaurasundara: The servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the father.

Prabhupāda: So one devotee, he becomes father of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and any devotee who is attached to the lotus feet of the Lord, all kinds of success are engaged in his service. Bilvamaṅgala Ṭhākura said, bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā bhagavan yadi syād: “If my devotion becomes fixed-up unto You, then it is not very difficult thing to see You.”Daivena naḥ...

bhaktis tvayi sthiratarā bhagavan yadi syād
daivena naḥ phalati divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ
[Kṛṣṇa-k. 107]

Divya-kiśora-mūrtiḥ. You can see. And muktiḥ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smān. So one who has got bhakti, for him there is no problem for mukti, because mukti is always at her service. And dharma-artha-kāma: and the material opulence to become religious or economically rich, dharma-artha-kāma samaya-pratīkṣāḥ, they are simply waiting. So, what news?

Devotee: I have to take Pradyumna to the dentist.

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Devotee: I have to take Pradyumna to the dentist.

Pradyumna: For a stitch. Stitches must be taken out; it will just take a minute.

Prabhupāda: All right.

Devotee: What’s the time now?

Śyāmasundara: And I'm going in with him to get the airline tickets.

Prabhupāda: Post all the letters.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I will get that card from the immigration office.

Prabhupāda: Immigration card? For mine?

Śyāmasundara: And your address.

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes.

Śyāmasundara: I may need your passport to…, you know, that letter. They like that letter, but they may want to verify the signature. I don't know. Just in case, I should take it, put that in you [indistinct] Nanda-kumāda, that white bag.

Prabhupāda: You can get it.

Śyāmasundara: Where is it?

Prabhupāda: [indistinct] [devotees talking about location of bag] So what is today's program?

Gaurasundara: The same. You said you'd like to have the meeting today outside, on the grass under those trees. So we are considering that. Do you want to go ahead?

Prabhupāda: No. There may be rain; it may be wet.

Gaurasundara: All right. You want it inside.

Prabhupāda: What do you think?

Gaurasundara: It's been sunny.

Prabhupāda: If it is sunny, then outside is nice. If it is cloudy, then it is not.

Gaurasundara: It's just on this side around; on the other side it wasn't raining.

Prabhupāda: Well other side or inside; if it is sunny then outside is nice. If it is not, then inside.

Gaurasundara: Yes. We can do.

Śyāmasundara: Is there a speaker outside, and a microphone?

Gaurasundara: Well, we can get an extension cord and put it out there.

Govinda dāsī: [indistinct] People, as they are walking to classes, they shall [indistinct] drawn. [break]

Prabhupāda: ... And he wanted to give him some benediction. So Duryodhana said, “I request you to become guest of my cousin-brothers after Draupadī has finished his [her] meals.” [laughs] This intrigue and rivalry, they are always. Even five thousand years ago, such great personalities. Eh?

[big crashing noise, dropping something]

Babhāra milaha mūrkhaya[?].

Govinda dāsī: [laughs] I don’t remember that one.

Prabhupāda: In our Indian family, if the want for purīs and a little vegetable, it will be prepared in five minutes. Five minutes, immediately. My brother's wife, very nice wife, I saw, whenever I wanted some tiffin like that, within five minutes: immediately. They were so quick and knew the art how to do it. Gas stove is there; it doesn't take much time.

Śyāmasundara: Electric is a little...

Prabhupāda: Electric is no use—rascal. You cannot know what is the temperature. Gas you can control.

Śyāmasundara: Would there be a place to Xerox some pages?

Gaurasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So you can keep this bag the same place?

Śyāmasundara: Might have to take this flowerpot [indistinct] out of here.

Prabhupāda: So there is no other alternative to save your country than this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Are you convinced of this fact or not? Yesterday, when I saw the students, it is such a rich country, and they are all urchins. What responsible work they can do? Don’t be sorry. I sometimes see that our students are so irresponsible that their cloth is drying for three years. They have no sense that “The cloth is now dry; let us take it.” Anyway, it becomes habit, irresponsible. That is natural when one has got money. [indistinct]

Gaurasundara: [to another devotee]These things are already broken, [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: So these are signs of fall down. This American nation, if their young men are becoming so irresponsible, careless, then what is the future? Their father and grandfathers built up this American state so nicely by their labor, hard labor, and these boys will spoil it. Now to speak the truth, all the students who have come to me, they are spoiled; simply saved by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Do you agree to that?

Devotee (1): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if you actually want to do something for your country, this is the only, only means you can save your country. Such a great nation, they are neglecting, and this rascal Nixon, he is engaged in Vietnam. He does not see what is happening in his own country. Such a rascal he is. Simply for self-aggrandizement. And anybody stands for presidency, he’ll be killed. Any good man that stands for presidency, he’ll be killed by Nixon and company. It is very sinister, this Nixon. I am very doubtful that he has killed all these Kennedys. These big, big men, Kennedys, are killed, but no information was given what was the matter, how he was killed. There was no inquiry.

Gaurasundara: Yes. There was inquiry.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Gaurasundara: But not very… It took a long time, years, five, six years after President Kennedy. They made a law that the report could not be released for, I think, seven years. [break]

Prabhupāda: My point of view that if America becomes actually sane man, then the world will be happy. Because they are after America. America, in so many ways they are helping other undeveloped countries also, with foodstuff, with money, with assistance. That’s very nice. And still in America there is so much vacant land. You can produce huge quantities. This is their bad politics. Why they do not allow the congested countries like China, India come here and be engaged in agriculture? By God’s arrangement there is no scarcity. It is by our arrangement there is defect. God can main... My Guru Mahārāja used to say, “There is no scarcity; only scarcity is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.”

So now those who are senior students, they should extensively tour, parivrājakācārya. Gṛhiṇāṁ dīna-cetasām.

mahad-vicalanaṁ nṝṇāṁ
gṛhiṇāṁ dīna-cetasām
[Bhāg. 10.8.4]

Mahad, those who are great personalities, they should... They travel, mahad-vicalanaṁ. Vicalanaṁ means traveling, touring. Why? Gṛhiṇāṁ dīna-cetasām. The householders, dīna-cetasām… In the beginning I was thinking, “Why they have been called dīna?” Dīna-cetasām means poor-minded, dīna; or crippled, cripple-minded. Actually, I see all the householders in Western countries, they are cripple-minded. Just like animal they are living. There is no high thought: what is next life, what is God. There is nothing of the sort. Simply bodily. That is also an illusion. What is the pleasure I do not find by fighting, box-fighting, and this baseball. All jumping in the... What is that? It may be pleasing to some others, but the man who is doing, looking for some money or for some reputation, he is risking everything, his life also. Is it not? This box-fighting, one is risking his life simply for some reputation and some money. So gṛhiṇāṁ dīna-cetasām: cripple-minded. They do not know how to live actually comfortable life. They do not know. How to become happy, they do not know. Simply like monkey they are jumping, and they are happy like the child [indistinct]. Monkeys, you know monkey’s business? Jumping from this branch to another branch. That is their sporting. Naked, having three dozen women behind him. You know?

Gaurasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: You have seen monkeys?

Gaurasundara: In zoos.

Prabhupāda: They have got a band of female monkeys. And therefore it is sometimes chastised, “You are a monkey.” No sense. Band of females means there is his daughters also, sons also, and everything—family, mixed family—but he has no distinction between mother, brother. Monkeys and hogs and dogs, and human beings also are becoming. No discrimination. Now they are writing philosophy, “What is the wrong there if one has sex with his daughter?” Do you know that?

Gaurasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: In India some Congress leader, he has written. And we are doubtful that the rascal Jawaharlal Nehru, he was keeping his daughter. He was keeping his sister, everyone knows. Such rascals; these are rascals. And his daughter, even his husband with her, he won’t allow his daughter to go to husband. And the husband died. He was such a... Horrible. And he was the head of India, like that. Now his daughter is head of the whole nation. You see? Banerjee[?], first-class prostitute. He was keeping his daughter with him, and the daughter was not satisfied, and he was implicated with his secretary, and he was drawing any amount of money just to satisfy the senses of him. This is the history of that family. And Jawaharlal’s father had one dozen prostitutes. Whatever he was earning, he was get... In those days, five hundred rupees per day he was earning. In those days five hundred rupees means at least ten times of the present value. Five hundred rupees means five thousand, daily. So in those days five hundred rupees was…, he was royal king, and his money... His another hobby was that he would invite some big man with his wife, and he would corrupt his wife. That was his business. Even the Governor, and he will invite and… [laughs] Yes. Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru.

So these people are leaders, these rascals, rogues, thieves, debauchers, and they are supporting their debauchery by philosophy. Jawaharlal Nehru paid one Dr. Mukherjee, Rādhā-Dāmodara[?] Mukherjee, gave him a seat in the parliament and paid him money and induced him to write a book in support of cow slaughter. So a paid rogue, he search out some support from this śāstra and that śāstra, big book, that cow slaughter was done in India formerly, so there is no wrong. This was his propaganda. Dukha lage haspai[?] We simply see, we could not do anything. What we shall do? Of course, these things will go on. Actually we can do something. Let us try to spread this; this will counteract all evil things. But sometimes we see that these rogues and rascals, just like this Stalin, he was the greatest criminal in the history of human society. Greatest criminal.

Govinda dāsī: Stalin?

Prabhupāda: Stalin, and he was Russian leader. Lenin, Lenin’s very face is demonic. You have seen Lenin’s face?

Govinda dāsī: Only[indistinct].

Prabhupāda: Satanic, satanic face. And he was a Satan. What is that, his face?

Śyāmasundara: He looks like the devil.

Prabhupāda: Devil, yes. Devilish. So on behalf of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is our duty to save these living entities who are parts and parcel of Kṛṣṇa from misguided illusion by the influence of māyā. Para-duḥkha-duḥkhī. We should be sorry for their plight. So we shall remain strong in our spiritual consciousness [indistinct]. Pṛthivīte āche yata nagarādi grāma [CB Antya 4.126], Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Go on and do that. Of course… So are they understanding our philosophy?

Gaurasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And another batch of rascals from India, Swami Cinmayānanda and company. [laughs] They are also coming and misleading scholars. They should have given their spiritual, except distribute in the right manner. They are also rogues, and they are... Actually, outside India everyone is. Everyone is convinced that India has got some sort of spiritual. Everyone admits, that’s a fact. But these rascals they come, they do not know anything, beginning from Vivekananda, and they come there, and they are criticized. Perhaps for the first time, I am giving the real Indian spiritual culture. I am not proud, but actually this is the fact. All rascals, they are giving some bogus things, simply bogus things. Did you attend Cinmayānanda’s lecture here?

Gaurasundara: No, I...

Prabhupāda: Those who attended, did you hear from them?

Gaurasundara: Not much. I wasn’t very interested until after you wrote us that we should have gone.

Prabhupāda: Talks all nonsense—big, big speech. How to manufacture all this nonsense, [laughs] speaking. That is their credit. They go on talking nonsense for hours. [devotees talking in background]

Govinda dāsī: One girl who went and [indistinct] it was incoherent; it didn't make any sense..., couldn’t follow it. Just didn’t make any sense.

Prabhupāda: How it can make sense? They do not know what is sense.

[break] ...how you watch it. Humans put out so many chemicals, but they are not working.

Śyāmasundara: This chemical, DNA...

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is not working.

Śyāmasundara: No, it doesn't work on its own, but it…, they have found that it..., a memory pattern can be impressed in it, so that as a chemical it can remember. If it is injected into a...

Prabhupāda: These also nonsense theories; otherwise, if you have found out that DNA chemical, then you put that DNA chemical in a dead man’s brain. These are all nonsense.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. They… I tried some of that chemical. When you take it into your body, it increases your power of memory tremendously for a short time; then you forget again when it wears away.

Prabhupāda: But that is because you are present, you can.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But when you are absent, it will not act.

Śyāmasundara: Hm.

Govinda dāsī: Are we responsible for the millions of little germs and living entities in our body?

Prabhupāda: Huh?

Govinda dāsī: Are we responsible for them? Just like if the fly is in our house, we are responsible for it?

Prabhupāda: No.

Govinda dāsī: We are not responsible?

Prabhupāda: Prakṛti, in order to give you facility, just like... Departmental health is working. He has been given somebody assistant to help him. So by nature these things are arranged. You wanted a body like this—nature has supplied it under the direction of prakṛti. Kṛṣṇa is sitting within you; He knows what you want and He gives you the facility, “Take it.” And He orders nature, or His energy. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: It is like in the blood. They say that each red cell, each red corpuscle, is a little living entity, and in a healthy body the red corpuscles will attack the white corpuscles and destroy them. So each corpuscle is living in itself, as a living entity. So actually...

Prabhupāda: That is going on actually. Some germs are growing, and another bird is coming, eating and maintaining nature’s...

Śyāmasundara: So actually our body is not a lump of dead matter; it is filled with millions of living entities.

Prabhupāda: No matter is vacant without living entities. Therefore I protest, “How the moon planet can be without living entities?” That is my protest.

Śyāmasundara: So even in a dead body there are millions of red corpuscles that are still there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Millions of living entities. Even a dead body can... What the moon planet has done that there is no living entities? This is bogus; therefore it is against nature.

Śyāmasundara: There is some kind of consciousness, or electricity, which is organizing the whole arrangement of living entities in the body?

Prabhupāda: Yes, the Supreme Consciousness, Kṛṣṇa, as Paramātmā. He is arranging everything through the material energy. And why Kṛṣṇa should be absent in the moon planet, although the body is there? If this dead body contains so many living entities, even moon is a dead body, and why there shall not be living entities?

Śyāmasundara: Hm. We have no experience of anything void of living entities.

Prabhupāda: No. Sarva-gā: everywhere there is living entities.

Śyāmasundara: Even in the South Pole.

Prabhupāda: Everywhere. Living entities’ name is sarva-gā. Sarva-gā means it lives everywhere; or it can go everywhere.

Śyāmasundara: Some scientists say that the body, all of the organisms in the body are organized by electricity, or magnetism.

Prabhupāda: That is their nonsense. Electricity, we don't find electricity is working automatically, unless there is electric engineer.

Śyāmasundara: They take little pins like this, and they can measure the electricity in different parts of the body, and they say that this...

Prabhupāda: But as soon as you say electricity, either you are defining wrongly... If you say electricity, then I will say so far we have got experience, electricity is produced by electric engineer.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, they say to move my hand like this, an electronic impulse travels in the nerves and makes the hand move. It has a very tiny amount of electricity.

Prabhupāda: No, that is nonsense. I want to move it, therefore it moves.

Śyāmasundara: But do I use electricity to make the impulse?

Prabhupāda: No. There is arrangement. There is an arrangement. And if the arrangement is taken away, then even I will, it is paralyzed; I cannot do it.

Śyāmasundara: It’s a mechanical arrangement.

Prabhupāda: Yes. There is full arrangement.

Śyāmasundara: They take what they call little electrodes, and they poke in different parts of the head...

Prabhupāda: You can explain in different ways. That is material. But if the arrangement is wrong, then I cannot utilize it. Just like you are running on a car—the arrangement is there. If the arrangement goes wrong, you cannot drive it. That’s all.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The basic arrangement of a car also is electricity. Beginning with the battery, the car starts, and if the electronic impulses are there, the other parts run. So I was wondering if consciousness produces electricity in the body. Is that what makes...?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: The car has to have a driver to start it.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. The electricity is not turned on until a driver does it.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, I heard of one instance where the scientists were trying to... They analyzed the seawater completely, every chemical in it, and then they made a similar exact combination of chemicals and put one fish, and asked him to live there. But the fish would die. Every time the fish would die, and they had all the chemicals analyzed, and they would try it again and again. Finally they took one drop of seawater, natural seawater, and the fish lived. Because they couldn’t really analyze everything. They thought they were analyzing it, but they couldn’t really analyze it.

Śyāmasundara: They added one drop to the chemicals?

Govinda dāsī: Yeah, one drop of natural, real seawater, and then the fish was able to survive. But until then he wasn't able to survive. So their analysis is not very impressive. [pause]

Śyāmasundara: I never though of it that way before, that this body is composed of millions and millions of those little living entities. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: So this picture I can take with me?

Govinda dāsī: Oh, yes. Certainly you can have it. I’d love for you to take it.

Prabhupāda: In my room there is no picture of Gaura-Nitāi.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So we can have it framed.

Prabhupāda: We can frame there.

Govinda dāsī: If you like, we can frame it here, but it would be very heavy to carry. Too heavy. It’s very light.

Prabhupāda: No.

Govinda dāsī: We’ve had this painting on the altar for about a year and a half or so, you know, offering ārātika, until the Deities were installed.

Prabhupāda: [speaking verses]

parama koruṇa, pahū dui jana,
nitāi gauracandra
saba avatāra-sāra śiromaṇi,
kevala ānanda-kanda
bhajo bhajo bhāi, caitanya nitāi,
sudṛḍha biśwāsa kori’
viṣaya chāriyā, se rase majiyāmukhe bolo hari hari
dakho dakho bai, tri-bhuvane nāi,
emona doyāla data,
paśu pākhī jhure, pāṣāṇa vidare,
śuni' jāṅra guṇa-gāthā,
viṣaya bhajiyā, rahi majiyā[?]
se pade nahilo āśa,
āpana karama, bhuñjāye śamana,
kahoye locana-dāsa
parama karuṇa, pahū dui-jana
nitāi-gauracandra
saba avatāra-sāra śiromaṇi,
bhajo bhajo bhāi, caitanya nitāi,
sudṛḍha biśwāsa kori’
viṣaya chāriyā, se rase majiyāmukhe bolo hari hari
[Gaura-Nityānander Dayā]

So, you can record this.

Gaurasundara: You have to sing... I’ll put it on a faster speed to make it. One thing, I’ll get the other microphone and make it stereo.

Govinda dāsī: They look very radiant now.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Govinda dāsī: They look very radiant now that They’re in your room.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. [indistinct]

Govinda dāsī: I think They have become more radiant since they came in here to this place.

Prabhupāda: The dancing position, very nice.

Govinda dāsī: Someone said that one time They were traveling together on the road to go somewhere, Gaura-Nitia. They were traveling on the road together.

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is Māyāpura, exactly the same road. Two-sided, yes.

Devotee: Yes, it looks like; it looks exactly.

Prabhupāda: Māyāpura is exactly like this.

Govinda dāsī: Oh, very flat.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Those two cows in the background.

Prabhupāda: You have seen the pictures?

Govinda dāsī: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Bring that. This is the road.

Govinda dāsī: The very road that Lord Caitanya traveled?

Śyāmasundara: It looks like that.

Prabhupāda: [softly singing] parama karuṇa, pahū dui-jana...

Śyāmasundara: It looks like that...

Prabhupāda: Here it is. Two sides: the one side our house is photographed; no other side He was. Other side you can see?

Govinda dāsī: Yes, I see it is very flat in the background, very flat.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Here is the road, and this is one side, this is one side.

Govinda dāsī: Lord Caitanya traveled on this very same road?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: I’d like to have some dirt from there.

Śyāmasundara: Didn’t Bhaktisiddhānta build it up?

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Śyāmasundara: He, er, elevated it? Repaired it? From floods?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Did you build this house?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: Oh, Gaurasundara asked me did…, was this house was built by you. I didn’t know.

Prabhupāda: The other…, in front of other house also.

Govinda dāsī: Oh. It’s very nice.

Prabhupāda: So I shall…?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. I want to put on a fresh tape, so we can do it on stereo.

Prabhupāda: [Prabhupāda hums] So you can repeat by hearing me?

Śyāmasundara: Bhajo bhajo bhāi, gaura nitāi... I think I’d have to get the book.

Prabhupāda: Hm?

Śyāmasundara: Do you have the book in there?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Govinda dāsī: We have the[indistinct] song book? [karatāls begin] [break] [end]

Prabhupāda: …a giant demon who could, er, I mean to say—what is called?—draw, or shove, or push the earthly planet into the water of Garbhodaka Ocean. He is not an ordinary being. But although he was very strong, just like mountain, the example is given, the mountain is broken into pieces by the thunderbolt. Everything is there in nature’s law, and by Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement. Nature is not independent. Nature is working under the superintendence of Kṛṣṇa. Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. We may not be amazed when there is a big thunderbolt falling on the mountain and breaking into pieces. This wonderful act is being done by nature, but behind the nature the order is of Kṛṣṇa.

So whenever there is mention of an incarnation of God, Kṛṣṇa, there is specific duty. This is the specific duty. This is not possible to be done. When Lord Rāmacandra, His specific duty was to kill Rāvaṇa and to construct a bridge over the ocean, this is not possible by ordinary man. Similarly, incarnation means something done which is not possible by anybody else. That is the test. So anyone, rascal, comes… But ordinarily, there… Because people are so poor in knowledge that any magic shown, they think this is not ordinary thing: “I cannot do it.” Little magical feats makes the incarnation. But not so… That is ordinary. If a magician can show something, and if another person exhibits the same talent, that does not mean he has become God. Suppose if one man can walk on the ocean—that is of course not very ordinary thing—but there are many big, big ships, they are also moving on the ocean. So that does not mean one has become God. Very extraordinary work. This is [indistinct]: to pick up the whole earthly planet from the depths of Garbhodaka Ocean. There is other reason.

So in this way, every day it is… Our Bhāgavata is there, and the transliteration is there, word meaning is there—they should be read. Not that it is meant for simply selling. That we should also read.

Devotee: Hm.

Prabhupāda: There are so many verses. We have taken so much pain to transliterate them, to give them word meanings and the purports, plus they must be instructed, discourses. Sanskrit, when pronounced, the vibration will create an atmosphere, nice atmosphere, Sanskrit. These are not ordinary Sanskrit; they are mantras. Every verse of Bhagavad-gītā, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, they are Vedic mantras. The chanting of Vedic mantras has its effect. Just like chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra has effect, similarly these mantras also chanted congregationally, it will have so much effect. So in the morning I think these classes should be held. [pause] [Prabhupāda sings:]

yaṁ brahmā varuṇendra-rudra-marutaḥ stunvanti divyaiḥ stavair
vedaiḥ sāṅga-pada-kramopaniṣadair gāyanti yaṁ sāma-gāḥ
dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yogino
yasyāntaṁ na viduḥ surāsura-gaṇā devāya tasmai namaḥ
[Bhāg. 12.13.1]

Pradyumna: Śrīla Prabhupāda? It says here in the purport, “A similar disturbance was created formerly by the demons headed by Hiraṇyākṣa [the great exploiter of the gold rush], and the earth was detached from its weightless condition and fell down into the Garbhodaka Ocean.” “The great exploiter of the gold rush”?

Prabhupāda: What is that “gold rush”? Gold rush?

Śyāmasundara: Gold rush means to exploit gold from the earth.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So they are after gold. They created some disturbance. Hiraṇya means “gold,” Hiraṇya-akṣa: “whose eyes are only on the gold”: “Where is gold?” Hiraṇyakaśipu, there is no question of money and women, that’s all. They are demons. The whole world is now full of demons only. They are after money and women, that’s all. Woman does not mean this form of woman. A man also can become women. If the two parties, one party is trying to enjoy the other party, that is man and women. It does not mean the form of women and man. Just like nowadays, in your country, the homosex is also introduced. So people are becoming so much degraded—simply after money and women. Money and women. These are Hiraṇyakaśipu, Hiraṇyākṣa. They will spoil the whole world. And they are spoiling. That is the business of the demons. And our business is to create Vaiṣṇavas in amongst the demons. In Vaikuṇṭha, sura-asura acutya. Sura and asura, both of them[?]. That is Vaikuṇṭha world. Asura can also be taught. Kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda-pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ [Bhāg. 2.4.18]. These are asuras, very lowborn, less than the śūdrās, kirāta-hūṇ…, but they can be also reformed, śudhyanti. They can be reformed. That is our movement, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Devotee (1): Śrīla Prabhupāda, you said that just like Hiraṇyākṣa, mining, demons drilling for oil, disturbing the floating condition of the earth. What will the result be?

Prabhupāda: The result will be destruction. Ultimately this material world will be destroyed.

[aside: What is those? Two buildings?]

Devotee (2): Those are military radar.

Prabhupāda: So there is no thunderbolt on the radar?

Devotee (3): They put lightning rods.

Prabhupāda: Oh. There is lightning. So many ways, they are trying to save. But nature will not allow them to be saved. They must die. But the struggle for existence is that everyone is demon. The Vaiṣṇava, they do not attempt like that. Tathā dehāntara-prāptir dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]. Dehāntara-prāptir, another achievement or another body. So a Vaiṣṇava is not disturbed. They simply reserve the prerogative to become a devotee. Never mind—next life. Hundreds of lives there may be. Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi [Śikṣāṣṭaka 4]: “Never mind, I will take My birth one after another.” But the demons, they do not believe in God or God’s service or next life. These are the demons. They are thinking that this is the chance for sense enjoyment. Therefore they are trying to save in so many ways and engage the duration of life, as much as possible, varieties of sense gratification. This is demon. They don't know that after this body finished, everything. So here is an opportunity to enjoy sense gratification. Therefore they are manufacturing so many varieties of sense gratification. They have no hope. And the Christian religion also says that they will go to hell or they will go to heaven. Destined. You have read Bible?

Devotee:(4) No.

Prabhupāda: So one is destined to go to heaven?

Devotee:(4) They’re teaching that.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devotee:(4) They’re teaching that.

Prabhupāda: Ah. That one is destined? Then what is the use of taking to Jesus Christ if I am destined to go to hell?

Govinda dāsī: You can be saved from going to hell.

Prabhupāda: Hah. Then say that even though one is destined, he can be saved. That should be the philosophy.

Śyāmasundara: He does. St. Paul does say that. He says it’s a mystery that although we are destined, still we can be saved.

Prabhupāda: That is reasonable. Taking to shelter of God or God’s son, one is saved. That is reasonable. But what is this philosophy that one is destined to go to hell, one is destined to go to heaven? This philosophy is not very nice. Just like we quoted one verse, kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda: these are destined to go to hell. But śudhyanti, by the association of pure devotees, they can be purified. Śudhyanti. Yad-apāśrayāśrayāḥ, ye 'nye ca pāpā [Bhāg. 2.4.18]. However sinful maybe, never mind what is the magnitude of the sinful activities, śudhyanti: he can be purified by the pure devotee. So that is real knowledge. And what is this, that one is destined to go to hell, destined to go to heaven?

Śyāmasundara: [to another devotee:] Do you have a Bible? Maybe you should bring it here.

Prabhupāda: There are many. Aurobindo’s…, Aurobindo’s philosophy is also like that: Once you get human form of life, then you don’t degrade. [laughter]

Pradyumna: Hmm. Theosophists also think like that.

Prabhupāda: Ah, yes, theosophists. They are similar.

Pradyumna: [indistinct] His point was that if someone was in third grade and they don’t pass, then they don’t go down to second grade, but they just stay in third grade, and they may go on to fourth.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Pradyumna: If he is in a grade in school, he is in the first, second and third year of school, but if he does not go on to fourth year, he just stays in third, but he does not go back to second. But I…, whatever they… Therefore I always say that if someone in school, he may not go on to fourth, but he may be so bad that he’s thrown out of school altogether, what to speak of going back to second.

Prabhupāda: That is his creation—his concoction, his creation. But Bhagavad-gītā says, Kṛṣṇa says, dehāntara-prāpti: transformation of another body. So another body may be in the second class or third class or any class. Dehāntara. Never says human body. Human body is guaranteed only for the yogīs, those who are trying to advance spiritually. Their next body is guaranteed, human being. Śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo 'bhijāyate [Bg. 6.41]. But others, dehāntara-prāpti, another transformation of body. And that is confirmed also, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke [Bg. 8.6]: At the time of death the mental condition will give you another body. There is proof also, just like Mahārāja Bharata. He was advancing in spiritual life—he left his kingdom—but at the time of death he was thinking of a deer, so he became a deer. Such an advanced… Of course, he did not forget himself. Therefore he was speaking always amongst the saintly persons, their association. He was remembering that “I was King Bharata. Now I have assumed this body.” But the nature’s process is that at the time of death, whatever you think, you get a body like that. So how is again guaranteed? It is guaranteed for yogīs. Either jñāna-yogīs, haṭha-yogīs, [indistinct]-yogīs, Their whole life they devote, maybe impersonal Brahman, so he can be merged into the impersonal feature of the Lord. Paramātmā. The yogīs, all kinds of yogīs, they are guaranteed next life. And all these yogīs, after many, many such births, bahūnāṁ janmanām ante [Bg. 7.19], he becomes a devotee. Sa mahātmā sudurlabhaḥ: such saintly person is very rare. Brahmaṇi pasamāsana[?]: taking shelter of the Supreme.

[pause] So, Govinda dāsī, how are you feeling? All right?

Govinda dāsī: Better. Resting nicely. [pause]

Prabhupāda: Their bricks are not so…, not so, not eleven inches. They are eight inches only.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, eight inches.

Prabhupāda: In India the bricks are eleven inches. [indistinct conversation]

Devotee:(1) The bricks are brought in by boat. Very expensive to build things here. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is Americans who can develop such islands. Otherwise...

Govinda dāsī: The other islands are not so developed. They’re very rural, very country. Except for a couple of cities, it’s all countryside and cows.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. [long silence]

Govinda dāsī: Śrīla Prabhupāda, these are gardenias.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Govinda dāsī: These are gardenias.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Govinda dāsī: [indistinct conversation between devotees]

Śyāmasundara: You have got ḍābs right there.

Govinda dāsī: They don’t use the coconuts. They pay people to come and… [end]

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