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Prabhupāda: [leads singing of Jaya Rādhā-Mādhava] [prema-dhvani prayers] Thank you very much.

Devotees: All glories to Śrī Guru and Gauranga. [devotees offer obeisances]

Pradyumna: We didn't read the purport yesterday.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Pradyumna: We didn't read the purport for eleven.

Prabhupāda: First of all read the verse.

Pradyumna: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. [leads chanting of verse] [Prabhupāda and devotees repeat]

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyat
[Bhāg. 1.2.11]

Prabhupāda: [corrects break of verse line] Tattva-vidas tattvaṁ.

Pradyumna: Tattva-vidas tattvaṁ?

Prabhupāda: Hmm. Vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ.

vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ
yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyat
[Bhāg. 1.2.11]

Prabhupāda: Read purport.

Pradyumna: Purport: "The Absolute Truth is both subject and object, and there is no qualitative difference there. Therefore Brahman, Paramātmā and Bhagavān are qualitatively one and the same. The same substance is realized as impersonal Brahman by the students of the Upaniṣads, as localized Paramātmā by the Hiraṇyagarbhas, or the yogīs, and as Bhagavān by the devotees. In other words, Bhagavān, or the Personality of Godhead, is the last word of the Absolute Truth, Paramātmā is the partial representation of the Personality of Godhead, and impersonal Brahman is the glowing effulgence of the Personality of Godhead, as the sun rays are to the sun-god.

Less-intelligent students of either of the above schools sometimes argue in favor of their own respective realization, but those who are perfect seers of the Absolute Truth know well that the above three features of the one Absolute Truth are different perspective views seen from different angles of vision.

"As it is explained in the first śloka of the First Chapter of the Bhāgavatam [1.1.1], the Supreme Truth is self-sufficient, cognizant and free from the illusion of relativity. In the relative world the knower is different from the known, but in the Absolute Truth both the knower and the known are one and the same thing. In the relative world the knower is the living spirit, or superior energy, whereas the known is inert matter, or inferior energy. Therefore there is a duality of inferior and superior energy, whereas in the absolute realm both the knower and the known are of the same superior energy.

"There are three kinds of energies of the supreme energetic. There is no difference between the energy and the energetic, but there is a difference of quality of energies. The absolute realm and the living entities are of the same superior energy, but the material world is inferior energy. The living being in contact with the inferior energy is illusioned, thinking he belongs to the inferior energy. Therefore there is the sense of relativity in the material world. In the Absolute there is no such sense of difference between the knower and the known, and therefore everything there is absolute."

Prabhupāda: Hmm. So tattva, tattva means truth, Absolute Truth. So Absolute Truth is vision from three angles of vision. Those who are trying to understand the Absolute Truth by the ascending process, they can reach up to the impersonal Brahman. Those who are trying to find out the Absolute Truth within himself, Paramātmā, they can see the Absolute Truth localized. Localized means just like during meridian, everyone sees the sun on his head. There may be a person dispersed five thousand miles, but everyone will say that the sun is on his head. So the sun is one, but he appears to be on everyone's head.

Similarly, Paramātmā, partial expansion of Kṛṣṇa,

eko 'py asau racayituṁ jagad-aṇḍa-koṭiṁ
yac-chaktir asti jagad-aṇḍa-cayāyad-antaḥ
aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham-
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi
[Bs. 5.35]

Eko 'py asau: one plenary portion, Saṅkarṣaṇa. Saṅkarṣaṇa is plenary portion of Kṛṣṇa. So Saṅkarṣaṇa, one, He is managing the whole material creation. Racayituṁ. From Saṅkarṣaṇa there are puruṣa-avatāra: the Mahā-Viṣṇu, Kāraṇodakaśāyī; from Him, again second puruṣa avatāra, Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu; and again from Him, the third puruṣa avatāra is Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu. Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is within this universe. He is lying on the ocean of milk, kṣīra. So the Paramātmā… He is Paramātmā feature.

This Kṣīrodakaśāyī Viṣṇu is situated in everyone's heart: aṇḍāntarasthaṁ. Aṇḍāntarasthaṁ is the Garbhodakaśāyī Viṣṇu, and aṇḍāntarasthaṁ and paramāṇu-cayāntarastham: not only within the universe, but within the atom of the universe. Nobody can count how many atoms are there, but still Viṣṇu is there. This is Paramātmā—brahmeti paramātmeti.

Bhagavān, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ—eternal blissful knowledge personified: a person who is eternal blissful knowledge. So Brahmn is eternity, and Paramātmā is knowledge and Kṛṣṇa is bliss. So three things, sac-cid-ānanda—eternity, knowledge and bliss—they are fully present in Kṛṣṇa.

So kṛṣṇas tu bhagavān svayam, that will be explained. The original Bhagavān… Bhagavān, they are all Bhagavāns. From Kṛṣṇa, Baladeva; from Baladeva, Saṅkarṣaṇa, Aniruddha, Pradumnya, huh, Vāsudeva. In this way expansion. One lamp, one candle, you ignite another candle, another, another, another—hundreds and thousands of candles—all the candles are of the same power, not that the second candle is less powerful than the first candle. No. All viṣṇu-tattvas, They are the same Personality of Godhead.

That is also explained in Brahma-saṁhitā: advaitam acyutam anādim ananta-rūpam [Bs. 5.33]. Ananta means unlimited number, expansion. The unlimitedness is compared, just like there are waves in the river; it is going on perpetually, nobody can count. Similarly, how many incarnations and expansions are coming out from original Personality of Godhead nobody can count. Everything unlimited. So…, but They are all the same, viṣṇu-tattva.

They are called svāṁśas. Svāṁśa means personal expansion, and we are, we living entities, we are also expansion, part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, but we are vibhinnāṁśa. Vibhinnāṁśa: separated part and parcel. We are not as powerful as viṣṇu-tattva. Viṣṇu-tattva is all-powerful; we are also powerful, partially. Just like Brahmā. Brahmā is also a living entity, but he is so powerful that he can create a universe. But Brahmā is created by Viṣṇu, and Lord Śiva is created by Brahmā, and all the demigods.

So God, there are different degrees of God. Anyone can claim, "I am God." God means controller. So there are different degrees. I am controller, but I am controlled by someone else; he is also controlled by somebody else. In this way go on, you'll find everyone is controller to some extent, but at the end he is controlled by somebody else. In this way, when you come to viṣṇu-tattva, then you will find that Viṣṇu, He controls everything, but there is nobody controller of Him. Viṣṇu-tattva or kṛṣṇa-tattva—generally known as viṣṇu-tattva. Jiva-tattva: we are jīva-tattva.

So because we have no inquisitiveness, as recommended in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā [Bhāg. 1.2.10]… We are not inquisitive. We, when we find that tiny god within, there is finished. No. You search more, tattva-jijñāsā: "Who is this cause?" Just like here in this material world we find the sun is most powerful. Sun is the most powerful. Then if you go on researching, then what is next to the sun? We see the sun globe, but we don't see the sun-god. But there is sun-god. So if we can penetrate into the sun globe, then we can find there is sun-god; he is the cause of the sun globe. So sun globe is the cause of the sunshine.

Similarly brahmajyoti, Brahman effulgence, is the effect of the effulgence from the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet. Brahmajyoti. And within this brahmajyoti there are innumerable Vaikuṇṭha planets. Brahmeti... In the Bhagavad-gītā Lord says, brahmaṇo aham pratiṣṭha [Bg. 14.27]. This brahmajyoti effulgence… Just like the sunshine is resting on the sun globe. The sunshine is not so important as the sun globe, because from there the sunshine is coming out. Although the sunshine is universally spread, still it is less important than the sun globe. Similarly, Brahman effulgence is unlimited; still it is less important than the Goloka Vṛndāvana planet.

Actually, only one Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is one, and from Him these rays, Kṛṣṇa's bodily rays, brahmajyoti. That is also explained in the Brahma-saṁhitā : yasya prabhā. Prabhā means rays, or effulgence. Yasya prabhā prabhavato jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi. Jagad-aṇḍa-koṭi: wherefrom all these universes are coming. After the effulgence, bodily effulgence of Kṛṣṇa, is expanded, then so many planets and universes are generated. Yasyaika-niśvasita-kālam athāvalambya [Bs. 5.48].

So this sṛṣṭi-tattva, the truth of creation, the truth of the Absolute Truth..., Absolute God, Personality of Godhead, it is a great science, but modern education, they do not take interest in this science. Because why they do not take interest? Because duṣkṛtina: they are very, very sinful. Duṣkṛtina, always engaged in sinful activities. Those who are sinful, they cannot understand what is God. That is not possible.

Therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. A person who is completely freed from sinful activities, yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. Anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ means…, anta-gata, completely finished. Yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ. Anta-gataṁ means "goes inside."

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
[Bg. 7.28]

Who can get out of these sinful activities? Those who are engaged in pious activities. Pious activities. If you act always pious activities, then there will be no chance of committing sinful activities. Therefore śāstra recommends, "Don't do this. Don't have illicit sex, don't take intoxication, don't indulge in gambling, don't eat meat." These are impious activities. If you stop this, then there is chance of pious activities.

You cannot have both the things at a time. You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. If you want to see fire is blazing nicely, then you should not touch water. Similarly, after initiation your all sinful activities are nullified—Kṛṣṇa takes. Kṛṣṇa says, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]: "Surrender." As soon as you surrender to Kṛṣṇa through the spiritual master, He takes away all your resultant action of sinful activities immediately. Immediately. But if you again commit, that is not good. That is greatest offense: nāmno balād yasya hi pāpa-buddhiḥ [Padma Purāṇa].

We have several times explained the ten kinds of offenses. Out of the ten kinds of offenses, this offense, that "Because I am now initiated to chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, and Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra nullifies all sinful reaction, so let me commit this sinful activity and I shall chant Hare Kṛṣṇa; it will be nullified," this business is the greatest offense. Greatest offense. Not that I confess, "I have done it, Sir." "All right." Again I do, again I confess. No. That's not good. This is called hasti-snāna. Hasti-snāna. Hasti-snāna means the elephant takes bath in the lake, very sufficiently watering on the body, very…, cleansing the whole body nicely, but as soon as comes on the land he takes some dust and throws over his body again.

This kind of business is no good for spiritual progress. Once your all sinful activities are nullified: ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66], but again if you commit, that is very great offense. No more. Jagāi and Mādhāi, they said, "No more." Jagāi, Mādhāi were very sinful, so Nītyānanda Prabhu requested Lord Caitanya to accept them, because Lord Caitanya's incarnation is to reclaim all sinful men. So pāpī tāpī jata chilo hari-nāme uddhārilo [Hari Hari Biphale]: "Simply by spreading this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra He has delivered all the sinful persons, suffering persons." Tāra sākṣī jagāi and mādhāi: "The evidence is Jagāi and Mādhāi."

So this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is so nice that anyone can be delivered. But there must be one promise. Just like Jagāi, Mādhāi, they surrendered to Caitanya Mahāprabhu to be delivered. Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked them one condition, that "Whatever sinful activities you have done, that I shall nullify immediately. But you promise that you will not commit again." So they promised: āra nare bāp. This is wanted. Every one of us, more or less sinful; so when we approach spiritual master, take initiation, our sinful reaction is finished. But we must not commit again. That is great offense.

So we should be very much alert to be…, guard against committing sinful, because Kṛṣṇa, God, is pavitraṁ, pure. So of course, if you are in service of Kṛṣṇa, as I have explained, you will remain pure. After initiation you are pure, and you remain in the service of the Lord chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, observing the rules, then you will remain pure.

So yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām [Bg. 7.28]. And puṇya-karma is devotional service—there is no comparison. If you offer little fruit, flower, water with devotion to Kṛṣṇa, it is many, many times greater than all kinds of pious activities. That is the version of the śāstra. So we remain pure and go on executing devotional service, puṇya-karma, and God will be realized. Svayam eva sphuraty adhaḥ [Padma Purāṇa]. By your energy, if you want to understand God by your ascending process, that also requires purity. Not that simply speculation. No. Catur-vidhā bhajante māṁ sukṛtino 'rjuna [Bg. 7.16]. Sukṛti. Sukṛti means those who are very pious, they can come to the devotional service—fortunate.

So this tattva jñāna, vadanti tat tattva-vidas tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam [Bhāg. 1.2.11], Absolute Truth, will be revealed if we remain pure and go on executing our devotional duties. Then Kṛṣṇa will appear before you. You will see Kṛṣṇa eye to eye:

yeṣāṁ anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
[Bg. 7.28]

Bhakti-devī, Kṛṣṇa's bhakti potency, or Rādhārāṇī, when She is satisfied that you are very sincere, then She will help you, introducing you to Kṛṣṇa: "Here is a nice devotee." Rādhārāṇī is so kind, sometimes She says that "This devotee is better than Me." Yes. Therefore we should try to satisfy Rādhārāṇī, remain pure and chant the sixteen rounds regularly, observe the regulative principles, then your success is guaranteed.

There is no doubt, because Kṛṣṇa will reveal to you what He is. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, then you are liberated. Yo jānāti tattvataḥ [Bg. 4.9]. Janma karma ca me divyam: how Kṛṣṇa is working, janma karma, how He is appearing, disappearing; what are His plenary portions; how He is expanding; how He is managing the whole creation—everything you will understand. Ataḥ śrī-kṛṣṇa-nāmādi na bhaved grāhyam indriyaiḥ [Padma Purāṇa].

But we cannot understand with our these blunt senses. But sevonmukhe hi jihvādau, when we engage our sense, hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-sevanaṁ—hṛṣīka means senses, purified senses—when they are engaged in the service of the master of the senses, Kṛṣṇa, then sevonmukhe hi jihvādau svayam eva sphuraty adaḥ: He reveals.

And as soon as He reveals unto you, you understand Kṛṣṇa, everything. And as soon as you understand Kṛṣṇa, immediately you become eligible to go back to home, back to Godhead. So follow this principle.

[aside:] What is time?

Next verse.

Pradyumna: [leads chanting of verse] [Prabhupāda and devotees repeat]

tac chraddadhānā munayo
jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā
paśyanty ātmani cātmānaṁ
bhaktyā śruta-gṛhītayā
[Bhāg. 1.2.12]

Prabhupāda: Next. [corrects pronunciation] Word meaning.

Pradyumna: tat—that; śraddadhānāḥ—seriously inquisitive; munayaḥ—sages; jñāna—knowledge; vairāgya—detachment; yuktayā— well equipped with; paśyanti—see; ātmani—within himself; ca—and; ātmānam—the Paramātmā; bhaktyā—in devotional service; śruta—the Vedas; gṛhītayā—well received.

Prabhupāda: Hmm. These are the qualification, one who can see God. These are the qualif... What are the qualification? First of all he is chraddadhānā: must be very faithful, submissive, and sraddhā, faithful. Yes. Munayo. Munayo means "thoughtful." We have to contemplate, "This I have heard today in the Bhāgavata class," then contemplate, "How far I have understood, how far it is truth, what is the difficulty"—so many things. You must be thoughtful, munayo.

Then what kind of munayo? There are many so-called thoughtful, thinking for sense-gratification: "How I shall go to that brothel? How I shall drink?" No. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā: thoughtful with knowledge and vairāgya. Vairāgya means "detachment." Knowledge means…, jñāna means knowledge, full knowledge. Without actual knowledge, what is the meaning of speculation? The knowledge is... Just like we have jīvasya tattva-jijñāsā, the inquisitive for understanding the Absolute Truth. But if he hasn't got knowledge about the Absolute Truth, what he will speculate about?

Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. These are the qualification: he must be thoughtful; he must have knowledge, jñāna; vairāgya—he must have detachment. If he is materially attached, then he will think of, meditate, only the material subject matter. The so-called meditators, they are so much materially attached that what is the meaning of their meditation? They will think of these material things. Jñāna-vairāgya-yuktayā. They must be detached from material attachment. Then he can see.

He hasn't got to go anywhere. Ātmani, within himself he will see, ca-ātmanām. And the whole basic principle is bhaktyāśruta-gṛhītayā: he must be a devotee. This jñāna means devotional jñāna, not the dry speculation. And how this jñāna, this knowledge, is achieved? Śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruta. Śruta means Vedic knowledge. Without Vedic knowledge there is no advancement. Vedic knowledge; not that I manufacture something. Some rascal avatāra has come; he says that "Now I want to give up all these books, Vedic knowledge."

So this is going on. But no. Without Vedic knowledge, śruta-gṛhītayā…Śruta, śruta means through the ear you have to understand. Therefore Rūpa Gosvāmī says that to become devotee without reference to the Vedic knowledge is simply disturbance. "I am a devotee." "What kind of devotee?" "No, I have become devotee." "Have you read anything? Have you heard anything?" "No. I have avoided all books." So such kind of devotion, Rūpa Gosvāmī says utpāt, simply disturbance, creating disturbance.

That is going on at the present moment. So many rascals, they are manufacturing their own way of understanding, without any reference to the authoritative śāstra, Vedic knowledge; without any vairāgya. "You can do anything. You can indulge all kinds of sense gratification—simply meditate." What kind of meditation he will do?

Therefore these things are explained: śruta-gṛhītayā. Śruta, śruti, Vedas, śruti. Śruta-gṛhītayā. And as soon as there is question of śruta, you must hear from the…, listen from the authoritative person. Sthāne sthitāḥśruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ-manobhir [Bhāg. 10.14.3], Caitanya Mahāprabhu. You can remain in your position, but simply try to hear from the authority; then everything will come out. That is called śruta-gṛhītayā.

Thank you.

Devotees: All glories to Śrīla Prabhupāda. [obeisances] [end]

Prabhupāda: So far I am personally experienced, in our childhood there were not so many problems. Now India is faced with so many problems on account of imitating Western civilization.

Journalist (1): Not simply because of the increased population?

Prabhupāda: There is no question of increased population. This is, I say always, this is foolish.

Journalist (1): That's foolish?

Prabhupāda: Yes. When you say "increase of population," it is a proposal of foolish persons.

Journalist (1): Oh, so someone..., someone who's foolish...

Prabhupāda: No. Even there is... Just like the birds and beast, they are also increasing their population. Yes. If you find one hole in the room, millions of ants will come out. So who is giving their food? There are millions of elephants in the forest. Who is giving their food? There are millions and trillions...

There are 8,400,000 species of life. Out of that, 8,000,000 species are other than human being, and 400,000 species human being, out of that, civilized persons are very few. And all the problems are in the civilized..., so-called civilized population.

Journalist (1): And that's because, you would say, that we have the wrong [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: No, I, I... We are believer in God. You see? So we know God is the original father. He is supplying maintenance for everyone. So there is no question of increasing population. If there is increase of population, God has enough resources to feed them. It is not the question of increasing population, but it is the question of demonic civilization.

Journalist (2): Well, I was going to ask you about that, civilization.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. That demonic civilization is creating problems. Not the increase of population. This is not the fact. Now, so far I have studied, that in America, in Africa, in Australia, there are so much vacant places that the present population of this world, if it is increased ten times, still there is enough food...

Journalist (2): And you think there's enough food...

Prabhupāda: There is enough so far as [indistinct]. But we have made artificial division: "This is America." The Americans, they went from Europe, and they illegally occupied that place. Now they won't allow anyone to come there. Similarly, the Australians, they won't allow to come there. New Zealand, Africa. Why? Our philosophy is everything belongs to God, and we are all sons of God. Everyone has got the right to live at the cost of God. This is our philosophy.

Journalist (2): But the values of Western civilization have made that...

Prabhupāda: Western civilization created artificial: "This is Africa," "This is America," "This is Europe..."

Journalist (1): Yes. Therefore that's made living as children of God impossible.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Because the one son of God is not allowing the other son to come in. And that he hasn't got the right to forbid. Just like your father has got ten sons. So all the tens sons have got the right to use the property of the father. That is law. Similarly, all the living entities—not only human beings; birds, animals, birds, beasts—everyone. This is called spiritual, or transcendental communism.

According to Vedic civilization, a householder has to see that even a lizard in the room is not fasting, to see whether it has got his food. Even there is a snake in the house, the householder is to see whether the snake has got his food. A householder should stand on the street, and before taking his food, he will say loudly, "If anyone is hungry, please come. Still I have got my food." And if there is no response, then he takes prasādam.

Journalist (1): That's a very difficult doctrine for many people in civilization...

Prabhupāda: Because... That is civilized. That is civilization. Animal civilization is that one dog, as soon as the other dog is coming: "Yow! Yow! Yow! Why you are coming? Why you are coming?" Just like here—here, everywhere—the immigration department, "Oh, how long you will stay? Oh." So many things. Why? A human being is coming... Vedic civilization is, even one is enemy, if he comes to your home, you receive him as..., so friendly that he will forget that you are his enemy. Yes. That is...

Journalist (1): But it must be very difficult for you to...

Prabhupāda: No. It is difficult because this civilization is demons. Just like India. India welcomed everyone. But the result was they occupied. Just like you English people. They were welcome. Lord Clive was welcome, but he intrigued to occupy India. And his statue is worshiped here. Because what is his credit? He made an intrigue, illegally entered India and made occupation. That is his credit. And he is worshiped. That is Western civilization.

Journalist (2): That's really what I was going to ask you. You must find life difficult, preaching the values of brotherhood in a society... [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Natural brotherhood. Just like in a family, naturally, a father has got ten sons, they are brothers. But one son is intriguing how to take the whole property. Yes. That is going on. That is demonic. If every one of the father's sons thinks that "Father is one, and father's property equally should be distributed..." But no. One cunning son is simply intriguing, "How to occupy the whole estate for me." Yes. That is going on all over the world.

Journalist (1): How do you stop that?

Prabhupāda: By Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Journalist (1): By Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as you are educated that God is one, Father is one, we are all sons, then the whole solution is made.

Journalist (2): Because there's no need for any one person to have any more than anybody else.

Prabhupāda: No. God has given everything. God has given everything, but if one party, becoming demonically powerful, he occupies everything, the others suffer.

Journalist (2): Yes. But the difficulty is... And that's a very optimistic view of human nature.

Prabhupāda: That is civilization.

Journalist (2): But, no...

Prabhupāda: That is not optimist; that is proper civilization.

Journalist (2): Some people might say, who weren't perhaps as convinced as you...

Prabhupāda: "Some people" means the demons. We are creating demons. By our education, we are creating demons. That demons, they are being frustrated; they are now becoming hippies. Yes. That is the position. Because everyone wants to enjoy. So as soon as we cannot enjoy, there is some reaction. You see?

Journalist (1): He rejects.

Prabhupāda: Rejects or reaction. Yes. Protest, rejection. So before this protest and rejection and reaction, if the leaders of the society become cool-headed, that "Actually God is proprietor of everything. Everyone is son of God; so everything, property of God, must be enjoyed by everyone," this, if the leaders only think, then everything will be all right.

There is no question of increase of population. There is enough food. In America there is so much excessive food that they throw away. They throw away. And they forbid, "Don't produce more." Why? Produce more. Distribute more. That is civilization.

Journalist (2): Yes. I know you define that as civilization. But I was trying to suggest that some societies, and indeed some individual personalities, are avaricious, seemingly by nature. How do you... Well, graft and greed and...

Revatīnandana: Sometimes that is their natural position.

Journalist (2): [indistinct] ...disease.

Prabhupāda: It is a disease. Yes. Disease. Lust and greediness. There are three qualities in the world, material world. One is called sattva-guṇa, one is called rajo-guṇa, another is called tamo-guṇa. Goodness. Rajo-guṇa is passion, and tamo-guṇa is darkness.

So at the present moment these two guṇas, qualities, darkness and passion, are prevalent. Goodness gone. Goodness. And the darkness and passion, the symptoms are greediness and lust. People are being educated to become greedy and lusty. Yes. That's all. Nobody is being educated to become good.

So what is the use of these rascal universities? If they are producing greedy and lusty people, then what is the use of education? Vidyā dadāti namratā. Education means everyone should be gentleman.

[knock on door]

That is education. And if you produce lusty and greedy people, there is no... This is animal education. The animals are lusty and greedy. [break] [indistinct]

Journalist (2): What is your view of predominant Western civilization, Sir?

Prabhupāda: This predominance is dwindling. Where is your British Empire gone?

Journalist (2): Yes, quite. In fact, I was asking you about...

Prabhupāda: So this is artificial. There was Roman Empire, there was Mogul Empire, there was Carthagian Empire, there was Egyptian Empire, and Greece and so on. They come and go. And there is a song by a Vaiṣṇava, koto caturānana, mari mari jāota. There are so many Brahmās come also, and they die.

So this kind of empirical, imperial onslaught, they will come and stay for hundred or two hundred, and create some problems. There were...Just like there was Napoleon, there was this and that. So they will come and go. They will come and go, create some disturbances and go. Nobody will stay.

Journalist (2): Yes, but they don't seem to be improving society. When they do come and go, society doesn't seem to improve on the way.

Prabhupāda: If you cannot... If you remain demon, then there is no question of improvement. You must be prepared to become... There are two classes of men. One is called god, or demigod; another is called demon. If you continue your demonic civilization, there is no question of happiness.

That Hitler will come and this will come, that will... They will fight for some time, create some disturbance and go away. Another Hitler will come, another will come, another will come. This way.

Journalist (1): There will always be unhappiness amongst...

Prabhupāda: Our philosophy is you cannot be happy and prosperous in this demonic civilization.

Journalist (2): What about the Western religions like Christianity? That's been with us now for two thousand years and doesn't seem to have helped people to become particularly...

Prabhupāda: First of all, try to understand what is religion. Then you come to different types of religion. Religion means to understand God. Do you agree to that or not?

Journalist (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: So if Christian religion is teaching to understand God and to become obedient to God, then it is all right. If it is not teaching that, then it is useless. Simply by stamping, "I am Christian," what do you gain by that?

Journalist (2): Well nothing, but that...

Prabhupāda: That is going on. Simply by stamping, "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim," "I am Christian," what is the gain?

Journalist (2): I've never been able to understand what the gain was either.

Prabhupāda: Now just try to understand: Christian religion is good, provided the followers of the Christian are actually following. But they are not following. They are not following. They are simply artificially stamping, "I am Christian."

In the Christian religion the first order is "Thou shall not kill." But the Christians are very expert in killing. So who is Christian? First of all let me see. Their First Commandment is, Lord Jesus Christ, that "Thou shall not kill." Now, everyone is killing, and still he is Christian. So this kind of Christian religion or Hindu religion, what will be the benefit?

If you don't follow, simply you stamp yourself that "I am Christian," "I am Hindu," "I am Muslim..." That is going on. Nobody is Christian. Nobody is Hindu. Nobody is Muslim. Everyone is demon. Everyone is demon! That is our proposal. There is no Christian, there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim. That is our proposal.

Journalist (1): Except people who have accepted the Kṛṣṇa consciousness, presumably. That...

Prabhupāda: Well, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not so easy. First of all, you were talking about the Christian religion. I say that Christian religion or Hindu religion or Muslim religion, there may be different religions, but what is the aim of religion?

That you should understand. The aim of religion is to know God. If you profess some religion, but if I ask you what is God, if you cannot explain, then what is the use of your becoming religious?

Journalist (2): Probably none. But people like to have, or seem to like to have, a religion.

Prabhupāda: They don't like. They don't like God. They don't like God. As soon as somebody speaks of God, they say, "They are crazy." So actually there is no Christian, no Hindu, no Muslim. All demons. That's all.

Journalist (1): How do you stop that?

Prabhupāda: Well, become religious. If you are really Christian, that is all right. But you are not Christian, because you are violating the orders of Lord Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus Christ sacrificed his life, and he says that he atoned for your sins, but you are not stopping your sinful life, and still you are claiming to be Christian. The fun is going on. Yes. Actually there is no Christian. Otherwise, Christian religion is very nice religion. Yes.

Journalist (2): Do you think that you can help large numbers of people in this country understand that...

Prabhupāda: I can help everyone, provided he takes my help. If you refuse my help, how can I help you?

Journalist (2): No, I'm merely suggesting that you would...

Prabhupāda: Yes. What is our...? I am helping. I am asking people to become God conscious. But if you refuse to become God conscious, how can I help you?

Journalist (2): But to become God conscious, do you think they have to become a devotee of Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: No. You become devotee of God. If you don't accept Kṛṣṇa, then... You have got some idea of God?

Journalist (2): Yes.

Prabhupāda: Or not?

Journalist (1): You could accept the idea of God in another manner than your Church?

Prabhupāda: Suppose... We are giving Kṛṣṇa, presenting Kṛṣṇa, as God, and we are giving God's name, address, place, everything. Yes. [laughter] Don't laugh; it is serious. If you refuse to accept Kṛṣṇa as God, then you present your God, give me His address, name and occupation. Can you give me?

Journalist (1): No.

Prabhupāda: Then? You take from me. Why you are refusing? If you do not know, then take it from me. And if you know better than me, you give it to me. You do not know; still, you will not accept. Then what is your position? That you don't want to know God.

Journalist (1): [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: When I say, "Do you know what is God?" you say, "No." When I present God, you say, "Why shall I accept? It is your God." At least we have got some God. But you know..., do not know what is God. So my position is better than you.

Journalist (2): Well, if you accept. Again, it's a slight digression.

Prabhupāda: No. You have no idea of God. You cannot give name, address, occupation of God. I can give.

Journalist (2): Do you need to have a name and address and occupation for God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Just like when you come, I ask you what you are: "What is your name? What is your address? What is occupation?" This is the first introduction. If I do not know your name, address, occupation, then what is the use of talking with you?

Journalist (2): Well, I would... Again, it's a very interesting concept, because often in Western civilization God is defined more as an idea than as a..., something...

Prabhupāda: No. That is nonsense. God is fact. God is a person like you and me. You can talk with Him, you can see Him. That is God. Not idea. We are talking with Kṛṣṇa. We are taking His instruction and abiding by His order. It is not an idea; it is fact! That is God.

Journalist (2): That's a difficult thing for people...

Prabhupāda: Not difficult thing. If you do not take, it is difficult. If you accept, there is no difficulty. They are accepting. There is no difficulty. They have also belonged to Western country. They are happy. And ask him.

Journalist (2): I don't dispute that they are, but you said that they are...

Prabhupāda: I am saying we'll give you all information of God.

Journalist (2): Yes. I'm not suggesting that they're not happy, nor that your followers aren't convinced that you're right.

Prabhupāda: So you can become also happy, you can know also God—provided you take. If you don't take, how can I help?

Journalist (2): What I'm suggesting is, I mean trying to suggest is that for a large number of people...

Prabhupāda: Well, large number... Large number... When you speak of something good, you cannot expect many. Just like if you want to sell diamond, you cannot expect that the whole population of England will purchase it. When there is question of diamond, the customer also must be very rich.

Similarly, to understand God is not so difficult or..., easy job. Only the fortunate, pious, nice people can understand God. Not ordinary.

Journalist (2): And only get to work at it, find the time to try it. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: But we are giving facilities to everyone to understand God. That is our mission.

[knock on door]

Journalist (2): But it does require a certain price for them to pay as individuals.

Prabhupāda: No price. Simply to become sincere.

Journalist (2): To sincerely try to find Him.

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you are sincerely anxious to know God, there is no difficulty. There is no difficulty. Tatra laulyam eka-mūlyam. One must be very much anxious that "I must know God." Then God is revealed.

There is no question of paying so much money. Our transaction in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, there is no monetary transaction. I did not pay anything to them, neither they are paying to me. It is a question of understanding.

Journalist (2): Yes. I'm only suggesting that you were saying already that only people who were kind or gentle perhaps would find it easy to start. There are obviously, as you were saying, lots of people who are not so kind or gentle, and presumably would find it more difficult.

Prabhupāda: No. They may not be gentle, but we are gentle. Please come to us and learn. They may not be gentle. We can create gentle, provided he follows.

Journalist (2): Is that one single...

Dhanañjaya: [background talk] Śrīla Prabhupāda, [indistinct] the BBC One, Radio. They're [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: You can also note—this is common, talking of God.

Journalist (2): One last question. Is there a single, simple [indistinct] that you could give to people who don't know anything about Kṛṣṇa consciousness to help them to understand it? Is there one simple, single...

Prabhupāda: Very simple: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer. If God is proprietor, He must be enjoyer. And God is the supreme friend.

Journalist (2): Thank you very much. How long're you going to be...?

Prabhupāda: If you simply understand these three things. This is fact.

Journalist (2): God is the proprietor.

Prabhupāda: God is the proprietor. God is the enjoyer.

Journalist (2): Enjoyer.

Prabhupāda: And God is the supreme friend. Now if you analyze... Now you cannot say that you are the proprietor of this land. Somebody else is. Just like the land was there before your birth, and the land will remain there after your death, so during your span of life you are simply claiming, "This is mine."

But before your birth, after your death, it belongs to somebody else, the supreme proprietor. And because He is the supreme proprietor, He is the supreme enjoyer. And He is the supreme friend in this way, that He is giving all necessities of life to everyone. Nobody can be better friend than God.

Journalist (2): Thank you very much.

Prabhupāda: So these three things, if you try to understand: that God is the proprietor, God is the supreme friend and God is the supreme enjoyer, then all problems solved.

Journalist (2): Thank you.

Journalist (3): May I come in another queue for BBC Radio 4, just to tell me in fact what is the purpose of your visit to London?

Prabhupāda: To teach you these things, as we were just talking with your friend, that God is proprietor, God is friend of everyone and God is the supreme enjoyer.

Journalist (3): I understand in fact that you are a pure devotee of Kṛṣṇa. What does this mean?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Journalist (3): Can you tell me what it means?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Devotee of Kṛṣṇa. Yes. Devotee of God.

Journalist (3): But what is the extent of your purity?

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Journalist (3): What do you mean by being pure? Does it mean that you have seen Kṛṣṇa?

Prabhupāda: Yes. I am seeing every moment. And if you want to see, I can show you. [laughter]

Journalist (3): Please do.

Prabhupāda: Yes. But it is not so easy. It is not so cheap that you want to see, immediately I can show you. You have to become student like him. Then you can see.

Journalist (3): I would have to become a member of the Kṛṣṇa movement.

Prabhupāda: Not only member; a student like him. There are many members, they pay some money. But they are learning according to my direction.

Journalist (3): Can you tell me what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness?

Prabhupāda: First of all you have understood this thing or not? If you want to see God, you have to become a student like him. Are you prepared to that?

Journalist (3): I haven't got the opportunity to become a student.

Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of seeing God. Don't talk of seeing God. God seeing is not so cheap. You talk about seeing God. If you want to see God, then you have [to] become a student how to see God.

Journalist (3): Can I see God by becoming a Christian?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I was speaking, that if you are true Christian, you will see God. But who is true Christian let me see first of all.

Journalist (3): Have you got a particular mission for London?

Prabhupāda: I have particular mission for the whole world. Why London? London is included in the world.

Journalist (3): What is that mission?

Prabhupāda: That mission is to make you understand what is God. You cannot say what is God. If I ask you, can you say what is God?

Journalist (3): I can't. Can you?

Prabhupāda: Therefore you have to learn.

Journalist (3): Can you say what is God?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes. Therefore you have to become student.

Journalist (3): Tell me what is God.

Prabhupāda: First of all, you become a student; otherwise you'll not be understand... That I say: God is the supreme enjoyer, God is the supreme proprietor. That I have already told. Can you understand this? Can you refute this, that God is not the supreme proprietor?

Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want?

Prabhupāda: No, why you are going away? You are talking one thing and then going another thing.

Journalist (3): I have to go, I'm afraid.

Prabhupāda: No, no. Then I cannot waste my time. You question one thing. Make a solution.

Journalist (3): What sort of people do you want to become students?

Prabhupāda: Tell him, Bhagavān.

Bhagavān: We want everyone to become our students. No one has a good understanding of what is God.

Journalist (3): I can't get this on the microphone.

Prabhupāda: You can take instruction from the students who are actually trying to understand God.

Journalist (3): I read somewhere that possibly you wanted to convert people who were politicians and businessmen. Why?

Prabhupāda: Who said? Where you have got this idea that I am trying to convert politicians? Where?

Journalist (3): Well, I read it somewhere. In a newspaper.

Prabhupāda: Where is that newspaper? This is not a fact. You are telling something which is not a fact.

Journalist (3): You want to convert everyone.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone requires to understand God. Why politicians and newspapermen? Everyone. God is for everyone. Everyone requires... The human life is meant for understanding God. Why politicians and businessmen? Without knowing God, he cannot be happy, whatever he may be.

Journalist (3): Do you think if people had a deeper understanding of God, a spiritual consciousness...?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then he will be happy.

Journalist (3): Do you think it would solve the problems of...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Certainly.

Journalist (3): Which problems?

Prabhupāda: All problems. Whatever problems you have got. Social, political, religious, cultural, everything.

Journalist (3): The problems that exist in Ireland and India?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Everywhere. You simply give education to understand what is God, then all problems will be solved.

Journalist (3): What about yourself? How long have you had this understanding and awareness of God?

Prabhupāda: How long you want? [laughter] I have had this understanding from my birth. My father was God conscious; he taught me how to become God conscious.

Journalist (3): And you are in fact the spiritual leader of these students. What does that mean?

Prabhupāda: Huh? Because I want to teach them what is God. If anyone is interested with God, I can teach him.

Journalist (3): How long does it take?

Prabhupāda: It takes one second.

Journalist (3): Well, can we do it?

Prabhupāda: Yes. You accept, surrender to God, then you become God conscious.

Journalist (3): And what happens to me then?

Prabhupāda: Then you become happy. And the Bhagavad-gītā says that God said that "You surrender unto Me, I give you protection from all sinful reaction." That is the statement of God. So if you surrender to Kṛṣṇa, or God, that "God, so long I was forgotten about You. Now I surrender unto You. You do whatever You like," everything is all right.

Journalist (3): Thank you. Thank you for your time. [break]

Prabhupāda: We are simply presenting the fact that everything belongs to God. God is the supreme friend and God is the maintainer of everyone, everything, and He is the supreme enjoyer. These three things if we understand, then the whole problem is solved. Now, I say that God is the proprietor. Now you refute. Those who will not accept, that "God is not proprietor, I am the proprietor," this requires discussion. How you become proprietor?

Bhagavad-gītā says, God says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. I am not manufacturing this. It is stated in the śāstra. God is the supreme enjoyer. He is the proprietor. He should be enjoyer. Just like here, if I am the proprietor of a factory, so the profit should come to me; similarly, if God is the proprietor of everything, then we cannot enjoy anything without the sanction of God.

We therefore eat prasādam. We know that the fruit, flowers or grains or milk, whatever we are offering to Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa has given us. You cannot manufacture these things, nice oranges, in factory. You cannot manufacture rice or wheat. Actually, God has given. That is God consciousness. Anything, even those who are eating animals, they cannot manufacture animals in the factory. That is also God's creation.

So in the Vedas it is said, eko bahūnāṁ vidadhāti kāmān [KU 2.2.13], "That one supreme living being is supplying food or necessities of life to all living entities." That's a fact. He is the maintainer. He is the giver of food. We are simply handling. That's all. Everything. Even this house or your car, everything, the material ingredients are supplied by God. The intelligence is also given by God. So by God-given intelligence, by God-given ingredients, you are preparing something, and you are claiming that "It is mine." Why?

Suppose if I give somebody intelligence, "You make this table like this," I give ingredients, I give him money, then after the table is manufactured, if the carpenter says, "It is mine," is that proper? "Sir, I have given you money, I have given you the wood, I have given you the intelligence, I have maintained you. How it belongs to you?" So this is going on. Everything God's, and we are claiming "mine." Ahaṁ mameti, janasya moho 'yam [Bhāg. 5.5.8]. This is called illusion. I am not the proprietor, but I am thinking I am. This is called illusion.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to remove this illusion, to accept the real fact. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is nothing that we [indistinct] manufactured artificially. To come to your real position. Just like a madman has got in some consciousness, he's thinking so many crazy ways. That sort of consciousness will not help us. If we actually come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that is our perfection. [break] God is the proprietor, God is the enjoyer and God is the maintainer. Three things.

So our this movement is nothing new. It is oldest and authorized. So now if we can push on this movement, that is the greatest welfare activity in the human... [end]

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