Morning WalkPreviousBhagavad-gītā 4.8Next

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PrabhupādaBhava-bhūtiDevoteeDevoteesIndian [woman?]Indian manPañcadraviḍaPradyumnaViśākhā

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Pradyumna: Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. [Prabhupāda and devotees repeat] [leads chanting of verse]

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata
abhyutthānam adharmasya
tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham
[Bg. 4.7]

[break]

Translation: "Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself."

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata
abhyutthānam adharmasya
tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham
[Bg. 4.7]

This is very important verse in the Bhagavad-gītā. Dharmasya. Dharma is translated into English as "religion," and religion is described in the dictionary as a particular type of faith. So actually, it is not that. Dharma does not mean a particular type of faith. Because faith, you may accept some faith, I may accept some faith, another may accept another faith. Then there is no question of preaching. Everyone is satisfied with his own particular type of faith, then there is no need of preaching, neither there is need of Kṛṣṇa's coming, descending on this planet. He said,

yadā yadā hi dharmasya
glānir bhavati bhārata
abhyutthānam adharmasya
tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham

If anyone accepts his own type of religion, so "I may not like your religion, you may not like my religion, but everyone is right," then what is the use of Kṛṣṇa's coming here to rectify adharma? Just try to understand. If everyone's religion is right... I may like or not like. That doesn't matter. You may like my religion. Then there is no question that any religion is irreligion. Just like the..., some religion, they think killing of animal is their religion, and somebody thinks that killing of animal is irreligious. Then which is right, which is wrong?

So dharma does not mean that you manufacture something, I manufacture something at home, or by some assembly, resolution passed. Just like in Western countries there are so many... Here also, by passing resolution, it is accepted as dharma. So Kṛṣṇa is not speaking of that type of dharma. First of all you have to understand. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glāniḥ. What is dharma, first of all you have to understand. Dharma means occupational duty. Or natural characteristic. That is called dharma. Just like sugar. Sugar is sweet. The sweetness is dharma of sugar. Chili is very hot. The hotness is the dharma of chili. If the chili becomes sweet and sugar becomes hot, that is adharma. Try to understand this.

So first of all, who can give us dharma? That is stated in the śāstras, dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [Bhāg. 6.3.19]. Dharma means the orders given by the Supreme Lord, or Supreme Being, God. That is dharma. This is the shortest definition of dharma. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam. Just like law. Law means which is given by the government. You cannot manufacture law at home. That is not possible. I have given this example many times, that in some country the law is, "Keep to the right," in some country, "Keep to the left." I think in America it is "Keep to the left." In England it is "Keep to the right." India, "Keep to the..." Now which one is correct, "Keep to the left" or "Keep to the right"? No. According to the government. If the government says that "Keep to the right" is right, then you have to accept that. And the government says, "Keep to the left, that is right," then it is right. We cannot say that "In my country I keep to the left. Why shall I keep to the right?" No. That will not be accepted. Try to understand what is religion.

So God is one. God cannot say somewhere that "This is religion and this is not religion." God says, Bhagavān Kṛṣṇa says, in the Bhagavad-gītā... Here it is said that yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati [Bg. 4.7], paritrāṇāya sādhū... In next verse He said,

paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ
vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām
dharma-saṁsthāpanārthāya ca
sambhavāmi yuge yuge
[Bg. 4.8]

The two business, Kṛṣṇa's. Because He has already explained, bhūtānām īśvaraḥ, "I am the controller of all living entities." Therefore when there is discrepancies in the execution of dharma, then He is to punish and reward. Paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām. Two things. Just like it is the government's duty to give protection to the law-abiding citizen and to punish the outlaws. These two duties of the government. And the supreme government, Kṛṣṇa... Because wherefrom this idea came? The government rewards the law-abiding person, or gives protection, and the not law-abiding, there is also protection, but under punishment.

So dharma means, as Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. This is dharma. This is dharma. And our dharma, our characteristic, is also there. Because every one of us, we have surrendered to somebody. Analyze everyone—he has somebody superior where he has surrendered. It may be his family, his wife or his government, his community, his society, his political party. Anywhere you go, the characteristic is to surrender. That you cannot avoid. That was the talk with Professor Kotovsky in Moscow. I asked him, "Now, you have got your Communist philosophy. We have got our Kṛṣṇa philosophy. Where is the difference in philosophy? You have surrendered to Lenin, and we have surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. Where is the difference?" Everyone has to surrender. It doesn't matter where he is surrendering. If the surrendering is correct, then the things are correct. If the surrendering is not correct, then things are not correct. This is the philosophy. So we are surrendering.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu has explained this: jīvera svarūpa haya nitya-kṛṣṇa-dāsa [Madhya 20.108]. We are surrendering, but we are not surrendering to Kṛṣṇa. This is the disease. This is the disease. And Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to cure this disease. Cure this disease. Kṛṣṇa comes also. He says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya. The dharmasya glāniḥ [Bg. 4.7], discrepancies in the matter of execution religion, when there is discrepancies, Kṛṣṇa says, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham. And abhyutthānam adharmasya. Two things are there. When people does not surrender to Kṛṣṇa, they manufacture so many Kṛṣṇas, so many rascals to surrender there. That is adharmasya. Dharma means to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, but instead of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, they want to surrender to cats, dogs, this, that, so many things. That is adharma.

Kṛṣṇa did not come to establish the so-called Hindu religion or Muslim religion or Christian religion. No. He came to establish real religion. Real religion means we have to submit, surrender, to the real person. That is real religion. We are surrendering. Everyone has got some ideas. He has surrendered there. Either political, social, economical, religious, anything—everyone has got some idea. And the leader of that ideal is also there. So our business is to surrender. That is a fact. But we do not know where to surrender. That is the difficulty. And because the surrender is mistaken, or misplaced, therefore the whole world is chaotic condition. We are changing this surrender to that surrender. "No more Congress Party. Now Communist Party." Again, "No more Communist Party. This... This party, that party." What is the use of changing party? Because this party or that party, they are not surrendered to Kṛṣṇa. So unless you come to the point of surrendering to Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be any peace. That is the point. Simply by changing from frying pan to the fire will not save you.

Therefore Kṛṣṇa's last instruction is,

sarva-dharmān parityajya
mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja
ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo
mokṣayiṣyāmi...
[Bg. 18.66]

So the discrepancy of religion means... This is also stated in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmaḥ, first-class or superior dharma. Paraḥ means superior, transcendental. Sa vai puṁsāṁ paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhokṣaje [Bhāg. 1.2.6]. When we surrender to the Adhokṣaja... Adhokṣaja means the supreme transcendence, or Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa's another name is Adhokṣaja. Ahaituky apratihatā. Ahaitukī means without any cause. Without any cause. Not that "Kṛṣṇa is such and such; therefore I surrender." No. Without any cause. Ahaituky apratihatā: and it cannot be checked. Nobody can check. If you want to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, there is no checking, there is no hindrance. You can do it in any position. You can do it. Ahaituky apratihatā yenātmā suprasīdati. Then you will, ātmā, your ātmā, your soul, your mind, your body will be satisfied. This is the process.

When this thing is discrepancies... One... There is one verse by a learned scholar that here we are surrendering to somebody... I am not surrendering to somebody for the his satisfaction, but for my satisfaction. I join some political party because I am finding out the opportunity how I can become a minister or how I can capture some power by going through this political party. This is my real aim. I do not go to serve the country. Maybe one or two. But my real purpose is how to get some opportunity, some position. Therefore I am not serving that party, but I am serving my ambition.

Therefore service means, at the present moment, service means kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśāḥ [Brs. 3.2.35]. Our so-called service is to serve my lust, kāmādīnām. Kāma, krodha, lobha, moha, mātsarya. We have got all these things. So somebody is serving lust, somebody is serving his anger, somebody his greediness. In this way we are serving the senses, not the particular person. When you go to the office, we serve. But you do not serve the office, but we serve the money. Because he is paying me, as soon as he says, "Now tomorrow I cannot pay," then, "Namaskāra." [laughter] Therefore he is serving the money. And why money? Because money will help me in satisfying my senses. Therefore I am serving my senses. Nobody is serving anyone. Everyone is serving his sense. This is the position. This is dharmasya glānir bhavati. As soon as we are engaged in serving our senses, that is dharmasya glāniḥ [Bg. 4.7]. And as soon as we agree to serve the senses of Kṛṣṇa, that is dharma.

That is the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā. When Arjuna was talking with Kṛṣṇa, in the beginning he was trying to serve his senses. "My dear Kṛṣṇa, if I kill my relatives I'll be entangled in this way of sinful activities. I'll go to hell. If I kill my grandfather, the other side, Droṇācārya, the other side... No, no." In this way he concluded, "No, no. I shall not fight." This kind of service is to satisfy Arjuna's own senses. He thought, "By killing the other party, I'll not be satisfied. I'll be very much sorry." That means serving my own senses. Kṛṣṇa also was giving him instruction that "You are a kṣatriya. It is your duty. There is no consideration of your relatives or your grandfather or your ācārya. When there is opponent you must fight." That way. In this way they were talking. The talking was that Kṛṣṇa wanted to satisfy His senses and Arjuna wanted to satisfy his senses. This was going on. Talking. But Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord; He is īśvara. His senses should be satisfied. Then it is service.

That is the whole subject matter of Bhagavad-gītā, because Arjuna denied to serve Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa wanted that "This battlefield... This Kurukṣetra war is arranged by Me. You are simply an instrument." Nimitta-mātraṁ bhava savyasācin [Bg. 11.33]. "Even if you do not fight, all these bodies who have assembled here, they are not going back living. They will be killed. Now if you like, you have to fight. But the conclusion is already there." Because paritrāṇāya sādhūnāṁ vināśāya ca duṣkṛtām [Bg. 4.8]. It was Kṛṣṇa's plan to kill all these asādhu, duṣkṛtām, Duryodhana and company. That was His plan. So that is His business. He came to install Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, Dharmarāja, on the throne, and He wanted to kill the adharma, Duryodhana and company. That was His business. So therefore this Kurukṣetra war was planned, and Arjuna was to help Him because Arjuna was a devotee. Bhakto 'si, sakhā ceti. Because Kṛṣṇa's friend. Everything is done by Kṛṣṇa, but Kṛṣṇa... And Arjuna is devotee. As the devotee wants to serve Kṛṣṇa, similarly, Kṛṣṇa also wants to give credit to His devotee. That is the business between the Lord and His devotee.

So Kṛṣṇa could do everything. He was competent, everything. But He wanted to give the credit to Arjuna. That was His plan. Kṛṣṇa has already done everything. But Arjuna, as a common man, he was talking with Kṛṣṇa. Actually, Arjuna also knew that "Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, it is my duty to serve Him." This was known to Arjuna. Therefore he is bhakta. Bhakta means who has dedicated his life to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is bhakta.

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
[Nārada-pañcarātra]

This is bhakti definition. When one becomes freed from all designation..."I am American," this is designation. "I am Indian," this is designation. "I am brāhmaṇa," this is designation. "I am kṣatriya," this is designation. So one has to become free from all designation. This designation is bodily. I am not this body. Ahaṁ brahmāsmi. I am spirit soul. Therefore when one understands that "I am not this body. I am spirit soul, I am part and parcel of the Supreme," that is self-realization.

brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā
na śocati na kāṅkṣati
samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu
mad-bhaktiṁ labhate parām
[Bg. 18.54]

This is Brahman realization, ahaṁ brahmāsmi, that "I am not this body." So long one is under the conception of this body, he is no better than the animals. Sa eva go-kharaḥ. Go means cows and kharaḥ means ass. Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke [Bhāg. 10.84.13].

So, so long we are in the bodily concept of life, we do not know what is our real religion. That is ignorance, mūḍha. Na māṁ prapadyante mūḍhāḥ [Bg. 7.15]. So long we are in the bodily concept of life, with upādhi, designation, so long we are in ignorance. That is dharmasya glāniḥ [Bg. 4.7]. In ignorance whatever you do, that has no benefit, either for you or for anyone. So whole thing, whole world is going on under this bodily concept of life, designation: "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am this," "I am that." So that kind of dharma is not dharma. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says at the end of Bhagavad-gītā, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66], that the Bhagavad-gītā religion is not Hindu religion or Christian religion or Muhammadan religion. It is the real religion, between the soul and God. The reciprocation, the exchange of dealings between the Supreme and the subordinate, that is called bhakti. Sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ tat-paratvena nirmalam [Nārada-pañcarātra]. Purified. When you become purified, tat-paratvena, simply by engaging yourself in the devotional service of the Lord... Ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Śikṣāṣṭaka 1]. These are the verdict of the śāstra. When our heart is cleansed, then we can accept this religion, sarva-dharmān parityajya. This is the religion. To accept Kṛṣṇa, to surrender to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, this is religion.

So when Kṛṣṇa says, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati... When people become averse to God, or Kṛṣṇa, they become godless, they think themselves as God or something like that, that is dharmasya glāniḥ. So naturally, here in this material world, every one of us, we have come to enjoy. Material life means enjoyment. Enjoyment is not real enjoyment. Real enjoyment is spiritual enjoyment. Spiritual enjoyment, that is with Kṛṣṇa. That is not in the material world. So the dharmasya glāniḥ means when there is discrepancy in the understanding of spiritual identity, that is dharmasya glāniḥ.

Then ahaṁ brahmāsmi. This is spiritual understanding. When one understands that "I am not this body; I am spirit soul," and when he begins... Devotional service begins there. That will be explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā [Bg. 18.54]. Because we are in darkness, we are not prasannātmā. We are always morose. Although we are serving the country, the community, the family or anything, but we are not happy, because that is not our religion. When the same service will be converted to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa, then we'll be satisfied. Then we'll be satis...

Therefore one learned scholar has prayed, kāmādīnāṁ kati na katidhā pālitā durnideśās teṣāṁ na karuṇā jātā na trapā nopaśāntiḥ, sāmprataṁ labdha-buddhis tvām āyātaḥ niyuṅkṣva mām ātma-dāsye [Brs. 3.2.35], that "I have served so long the kāma, krodha, moha, mātsarya, lust, greediness, anger. But they are not satisfied." I have given this example, that you cannot satisfy anyone by material service. The example is in our country. Mahatma Gandhi gave his..., the best capacity as he understood. Still, he could not satisfy everyone. Somebody killed him. So in this material world, so long we'll be in the material service, either socially or family-wise or community, whatever you do, you'll never be able to satisfy them. They will never say that "Now we are completely satisfied." Because it is disorganized. It cannot be. But if you try to serve Kṛṣṇa, a little service will make your life success. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya trāyate mahato bhayāt [Bg. 2.40]. Svalpam api, very little service, if you give. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. Svalpam apy asya dharmasya.

Just like... I'll give you example. Just like Kṛṣṇa, when He was child, the Pūtanā demon, she wanted to kill Kṛṣṇa. She did not know... Everyone wants to kill Kṛṣṇa, God. Just like Kaṁsa: he was making plan to kill Kṛṣṇa as soon He is born. That is the plan of the demons, to kill God, or Kṛṣṇa, some way or other. But actually, Kṛṣṇa is never killed; he is killed. That is the whole history. So this Pūtanā, she planned that "Smearing some poison on my breast, I shall allow Kṛṣṇa to suck it and He'll die." That was his [her] plan. Kṛṣṇa sucked the poison as well as the Pūtanā's life. She died. But, just Kṛṣṇa's kindness... Kṛṣṇa thought that "She, this demon, this rākṣasī, she came to kill Me by poisoning, but I have sucked her breast. Therefore she is My mother." Kṛṣṇa is so kind. "Therefore she must get the position of My mother."

So some way or other, if you try to serve Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa is so kind. Even if you have gone with a bad purpose, Kṛṣṇa will accept your service. Kṛṣṇa is so kind. So why should we serve so many others? And if you serve Kṛṣṇa, then others' service will be automatically done. The society's service, the family's service, the country's service, social service, political service, any service—that will be complete. Why? Because Kṛṣṇa is the root. Kṛṣṇa is the root. If you pour water on the root of the tree, the water will approach everywhere in the tree. That is injunction of the śāstra.

yathā taror mūla-niṣecanena
tṛpyanti tat-skandha-bhujopaśākhāḥ
prāṇopahārāc ca yathendriyāṇāṁ
tathaiva sarvārhaṇam acyutejyā
[Bhāg. 4.31.14]

Because Kṛṣṇa is the root. Kṛṣṇa... Bījo 'haṁ sarva-bhūtānām [Bg. 7.10]. Aham ādir hi devānām [Bg. 10.2]. Mattaḥ sarvaṁ pravartate, iti matvā bhajante māṁ budhā bhāva-samanvitāḥ [Bg. 10.8]. So if you try to serve the root, water the root, automatically everything will be served. Just like this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is aiming at service, aiming to serve Kṛṣṇa. That is the only aim. But automatically we are giving social service. Because as soon as one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious, he gives up all kinds of intoxication, all kinds of illicit sex, all kinds of meat-eating, all kinds of gambling. Is it not social service? Best social service. In America the government is appreciating, because the people are addicted to LSD, and they are seeing practically that as soon as a boy could come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he gives up all this nonsense. They are spending millions of dollars; they cannot stop. But we can stop simply by word: "Give up this," and he immediately gives up.

So this is the fact, that if you accept this dharma, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja, then all the problems of the world will be solved. Therefore this is needed. And to teach this education, to teach the people, the rascals... Therefore Kṛṣṇa comes. Yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7]. So Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's instruction, identical. Don't think that Kṛṣṇa is no longer... He's existing by His word. Take His word, apply it practically in life, and you will be happy. That is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya. All glories to Prabhupāda. [end]

Prabhupāda: So in the beginning, before the creation, God is existing; and after the creation, when the creation is annihilated, He will be existing. This is called transcendental position.

Pañcadraviḍa: Purport: The position of the Lord is always transcendental, because the causal and effectual energies required for the creation..... [break]

Prabhupāda: ...before creating this shirt, it was imperson. There was no hand, there was no neck, there was no body. The same cloth. But the tailor, according to the body, made a covering of this hand and this looks like a hand. This covering of the chest looks like a chest. Therefore, the impersonal means the material covering. Otherwise spirit soul is person. Just like you go to the tailor, according to your body the tailor will cut a coat. This coat, ingredients of the coat, the cloth, that is imperson. But it is made like a person, covering of the person. In other words, the spirit soul is person as much as God is also person. Imperson means the covering. Try to understand. The covering is impersonal, not the living being. He is covered. He is not imperson. He is person. Very simple example. The coat, shirt, is imperson, but the man who is putting on coat and shirt, he is not imperson. He is person. So how God can be imperson? The material energy is imperson. That is explained...

[aside:] ...that is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā,

mayā tatam idaṁ sarvaṁ
jagad avyakta-mūrtinā
[Bg. 9.4]

This jagad is avyakta, imperson. That is also energy of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, He said, "I am expanded in the impersonal form." That impersonal feature is Kṛṣṇa’s energy. So the material covering is impersonal, but the spirit soul or Supersoul is personal. Any question on this, it is very intricate question, anyone? If there is any difficulty to understand? [break]

Bhava-bhūti: ...because I have heard so many of these so-called yogis and svamis preaching in English about Gita or this and that, but they cannot explain, they have not even an inkling...

Prabhupāda: No, no, how they can explain?

Bhava-bhūti: They don’t have an inkling.

Prabhupāda: They cannot touch even Bhagavad-gītā. They have no qualification.

Bhava-bhūti: They have no understanding.

Prabhupāda: Their speaking of Bhagavad-gītā is artificial.

Bhava-bhūti: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They cannot speak because the real qualification, as it is stated in the Bhagavad, bhakto ‘si. One must be a devotee, then he can touch what is Bhagavad-gītā.

Bhava-bhūti: Even in Māyāpur, when we went to visit that time Śrīdhara Svāmī’s asrama...

Prabhupāda: Mmm, mmm.

Bhava-bhūti: ...and he spoke something in English, some other man spoke in English. They cannot explain like you, Śrīla Prabhupāda. You are the only one, that when you speak this knowledge it becomes immediately enters into the ear and into the heart, and then it is realized.

Prabhupāda: Maybe [laughs].

Indian man: Jaya. [Hindi].

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa. Viśākhā, you think also like that?

Viśākhā: Without a doubt.

Prabhupāda: [laughing] Hare Kṛṣṇa!

Indian [woman?]: [Hindi monologue]

Bhava-bhūti: We can tell that you are the only one who is speaking the real knowledge because you have created disciples that follow that knowledge, that follow the injunctions of the sastras. The others could not do that. When I visited Hṛṣīkeśa, they did not want to allow me to sleep in the asramas. We have to get a special police permission.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhava-bhūti: All foreigners. All foreigners. Because Maharishi and Bal Yogi and all of them, all of their disciples have created such a disturbance. They bring this marijuana, they bring liquor, someone was caught with gun, big guns. All kinds of disturbance. Walking with no clothes in public, this and that. So many disturbance.

Prabhupāda: Where?

Bhava-bhūti: In Hrisikesa, Hardwar.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bhava-bhūti:: So they have become so upset with the foreigners, that any foreigner who comes, he must get a police statement from the captain that he can come to stay in the asrama, special permission.

Prabhupāda: Which asrama ? What is that asrama ?

Devotee: Which asrama ?

Bhava-bhūti: Any asrama. Gita Bhavan...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Bhava-bhūti: ...Swarg, anywhere on Swarg Asrama or in Hṛṣīkeśa, you have to get a special permission. That Gita Bhavan, that is Paramatma Niketan, all of it, you have to get a special permission. I stayed up to 11:30 at night trying to see the police captain to get a permission to stay in the asrama. They were going to make me sleep in the street. Because all the foreigners, all these bogi yogis, their foreign disciples have caused so much disturbance. But none of your disciples have done that. All of your disciples follow the injunctions of sastra. Therefore, we can understand that what you’re speaking is being realized in the heart because it’s creating real devotees. Where the others cannot create devotees. They can only create big bank balance.

Indian [woman?]: [Hindi] [break].

Prabhupāda: So, just like I have got my consciousness and I feel pains and pleasure, you feel pains and pleasure. [break] But unfortunately I am thinking this is American pains and pleasure, this is Indian pains and pleasure. Pains and pleasure is the same. It is neither American nor African. Pains and pleasure is the same. So as soon as this consciousness, that I am feeling American pains, American pleasure, as soon as this is over, then we come to the original consciousness. Because consciousness cannot be American or African. If I pinch you, the pain felt by you is the same when I pinch the African. So therefore the consciousness is the same. Artificially we are thinking that American consciousness, African consciousness. Actually that is not the position. Simply this misunderstanding has to be cleared out. That is called ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Śikṣāṣṭaka 1]. Is it not a fact?

Bhava-bhūti: Oh yes, Śrīla Prabhupāda, it’s a fact.

Prabhupāda: The consciousness of feeling pains and pleasure, can it be American or Indian?

Bhava-bhūti: No.

Prabhupāda: It is the same. Artificially we are thinking it is American pain or it is Indian pain. That is artificial. This artificial covering has to be removed. Then we come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Feelings, consciousness is not American, African or Indian. Consciousness is the same. When you feel hungry, is that Americans feel a different way hungry and the African feels in a different way? So hungry, appetite is the same. Now, if you say there is American appetite and this is Indian appetite, that is artificial. So when you do not go to the artificial platform, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That is explained in Narada Pancaratra,

sarvopādhi-vinirmuktaṁ
tat-paratvena nirmalam
hṛṣīkeṇa hṛṣīkeśa-
sevanaṁ bhaktir ucyate
[Nārada-pañcarātra]

When we become free from these artificial designations, American consciousness, Indian consciousness, African consciousness, there is no such thing, this is artificial. Even bird and beast, they also feel consciousness, pains and pleasure. Just like when there is scorching heat, you feel some pain. Is that American, Indian or African? Scorching heat is [laughing] every, feeling...if you say that I am feeling scorching heat American way [Hindi exchange] simply these are artificial. Everything is depending on consciousness, everything depending on consciousness. Therefore, Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the original standard consciousness. So we have given the name Kṛṣṇa consciousness very, what is called, thoughtfully, that original consciousness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [break][End].

Prabhupāda: ...incidences are so described that anyone can remember. And by remembering these incidences, he becomes liberated. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Indian man: One thing I want to know, you see, when He was Supreme God, why He created all these līlās? When..., suppose He was sent...

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by Supreme God?

Indian man: Er, He was the Lord of universe. All the...

Prabhupāda: So He cannot do that?

Indian man: No, He can do it.

Prabhupāda: Then?

Indian man: That is..., so He has done. But as He sent Uddhava to Vṛndāvana to know about condition of Vṛndāvana people, even He was God, He knew it, no?

Prabhupāda: No, that is affection.

Indian man: Hmm?

Prabhupāda: That is affection. Just like you go to your friend, you know what he is; still you ask, "How are, you are?"

Indian man: Yes.

Prabhupāda: This is natural.

Indian man: Then he'll answer. Very affection

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man: But He had also... When He was God, why He had some affection also like that?

Prabhupāda: Oh, that you must know.

Indian man: Māyā... I, I, I say to māyā.

Prabhupāda: No, it is not. Māyā mean affection also. Māyā mean affection also. Māyā has got the meaning of affection. Māyā means illusion; māyā means energy; māyā means affection. Just like we say māyā..., chele rupar[?] māyā. That is affection.

Indian man: [Hindi] affection.

Prabhupāda: So māyā means affection.

Indian man: But when He was born, why should He have māyā? When He is the Supreme God, [Hindi]?

Prabhupāda: [Hindi] Can you control God? By your wording, He'll not be affected by māyā.

Indian man: No, that means I have...

Prabhupāda: That is God. That is God. He can do anything. He is not under your rules and regulation. Māyā..., māyā..., māyā means... Māyā means..., māyā mukta [Madhya 24.136] means the illusion. When the māyā is illusion, you have to get you out it. But when the...

Indian man: But what is the differnce between the illusion and māyā?

Prabhupāda: Illusion is forced. But affection is not forced. When father loves child, that is not forced; that is reality. [break] [end]

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