Participants:
PrabhupādaDayānandaEveryoneJagadīśaMaṇḍeleśvara
[Note: Śrīla Prabhupāda met with the gurukula teachers in the last week of July of 1975 in Dallas, Texas. We had a lengthy meeting in which Prabhupāda covered a range of topics ranging from the ultimate goal of teaching, to the instructions of Prahlāda Mahārāja in the 7th Canto of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about gurukula, to Cāṇakya Paṇḍita, to false Vedāntists. I don’t know what happened to the original tape, but this transcript was reviewed by Dayānanda Prabhu just after it was recorded for the accuracy of the Sanskrit and general content, listening very carefully to the tape. We both carefully proofread the English, and I can vouch for its accuracy and authenticity. —Rupa Vilasa]
Prabhupāda: So, what are you teaching?
Dayānanda: Some of the teachers are academic teachers; they teach in the classroom, and some are caring for the children in the āśrama, caring for their needs, helping them get ready for maṅgala-ārati and taking care…
Prabhupāda: So, what is the ultimate goal of teaching?
Dayānanda: Service to Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Dayānanda: Nine-fold process, service to Kṛṣṇa.
Maṇḍeleśvara: Four things: man-manā…always think of Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Why should one want to become Kṛṣṇa conscious? One can say that I can become materially conscious. Why should I become Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Jagadīśa: In the Vedānta-sūtra, the statement is given athāto brahma jijñāsā, that the human life is meant for Kṛṣṇa consciousness.
Prabhupāda: That is all right, but why is it necessary to become Kṛṣṇa conscious?
Jagadīśa: I am not this body; I am spirit soul. The soul is eternal.
Prabhupāda: That’s all right, the soul is eternal—that is one of the important things. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is required because the soul is eternal, but your body is not eternal. So, in order to get rid of this repetition of birth and death, therefore Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To conquer over the repetition of birth and death, and “teacher” means one who can educate the student to this understanding or this platform that there is no more birth and death.
Then it is perfect teaching. The whole thing is how to stop. Nobody wants to die, but he has no education how to become free from the punishment of death. That is what nobody has education of. And nobody wants to die, that’s a fact. So Kṛṣṇa consciousness means to stop this nuisance business, repetition of birth and death.
Therefore, it is compulsory, if one is actually eager. It is a fact that nobody wants to die, but he does not know. Even big, big scientists—they discover so many wonderful things, but they could not discover anything that he [they] will also not die. All big, big scientists—they die.
That means we shall also die, but after death there is no more acceptance of this material body; that means no more death. This is the last death, tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so ’rjuna.
tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma
naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
[Bg. 4.9]
naiti mām eti so 'rjuna
[Bg. 4.9]
We are teaching that after annihilation of this body, there is no more acceptance of this material body. And, because there is no more acceptance of the material body, there is no more death.
This is our… janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [birth, death, old age, and disease] [Bg. 13.9].
That should be impressed upon the students, and the teachers must know it. Then it will be successful. This is knowledge: that why should one be subjected to birth, death, old age, and disease? We do not want all these things. That is real science; that is real knowledge.
So our students should be elevated to this knowledge. And we are describing in our books how to understand this science. That is… [pause] One gentleman, he is a lord in England, Lord Pennardbroker came to see me. So I asked, “What is your philosophy of life?” He said, “Well, I’m trying to live fully, that’s all.” But after death, he has no idea. That is the defect; nobody knows what is going to happen after death.
These people are accusing us that: “What will happen after death, thinking like that, they are already dead, except that they are not enjoying this material world.” They criticize us, “You are thinking only of what will happen after death, and you are not taking advantage while you are living.” Do they not say like that? We are also living, but we are living not like irresponsible men. Our living may seem to be different from others who are living irresponsibly.
Jagadīśa: Srila Prabhupada, we were wondering whether there was any information in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam about gurukula.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Jagadīśa: Dayānanda Prabhu was mentioning that some things are in the seventh chapter, seventh canto…
Prabhupāda: Seventh canto. You have got? Seventh canto? Yes. So, you want it to be published first? No. [laughter] What do you want? I shall explain, no?
Dayānanda: That’s all right. We are eager to hear.
Prabhupāda: Here is the first [verse]:
nārada uvāca
brahmacārī guru-kule
vasan dānto guror hitam
ācaran dāsavan nīco
gurau suḍṛdha-sauhṛdaḥ
[Bhāg. 7.12.1]
brahmacārī guru-kule
vasan dānto guror hitam
ācaran dāsavan nīco
gurau suḍṛdha-sauhṛdaḥ
[Bhāg. 7.12.1]
Brahmacārī should be in gurukula. Dāntaḥ, controlling the senses. Vasan dāntaḥ and guror-hitam for the benefit of the guru, not for their personal benefit. Ācaran and dāsa-vat, acting just like a servant, the master orders and the servant carries out the order.
Dāsa-vat nīcaḥ, although he may come from a very aristocratic family, brāhmaṇa family, still he should acceptthepositionofamenialservant.Nīcaḥ brahmacārī…nīcaḥ means humble. Not that, “Oh, the spiritual master is ordering me to do this thing which is not suitable for my position.” No, we should be humble, that my spiritual master or my teacher has asked me to dothis,thisconsciousnessshouldbethere,not challenging.
So, brahmacārī guru-kule vasan…vasan means residing; dantaḥ, very self-controlled. Guror-hitam, for the benefit of the guru, not for his personal benefit, guror-hitam, ācaran, practicing or behaving. Ācaran dāsa-vat, just like servant, menial servant. Nīcaḥ…humble. Gurau sudṛḍha, gurau sudṛḍha-sauhṛdaḥ.
These things are accepted out of love for the spiritual master. Just like you are working; I am not paying you, but why are you working? Out of your love for me. This is the basic principle. Gurau sudṛḍha-sauhṛdaḥ. Sudṛḍha…firm. One should be convinced that my spiritual master is my best friend, and therefore, I must render service to him on this basis. The service you are rendering, it is not possible to be done even if I pay somebody $1,000 per month. It is not possible, because it is out of love. There is no question of payment. So, this is the basic principle.
yasya deve parā bhaktir
yathā deve tathā gurau
[ŚU 6.23]
yathā deve tathā gurau
[ŚU 6.23]
Bhakti… when one is fixed up in devotion to Kṛṣṇa and His representative guru, then everything becomes revealed automatically. Tasyaite kathitā hy arthāḥ prakāśante mahātmanaḥ. These are all revealed experience. These are the basic principles, that brahmacārīs, especially, are under the protection of the guru. He should be taught to become…there is no question in the beginning how much he has learned ABC, no.
The first thing is there, that one should live in the gurukula, practice sense control. The basic principle should be that we are living here for the benefit of the guru, not for my benefit. Therefore, whatever he orders, he desires, we execute.
Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, this would indicate that the atmosphere here must be very strict.
Prabhupāda: Not strict, but it should be there...it is on the basis of love. Stricture is not very good. They should do it automatically, out of love. That is wanting. Superficially, there may be some stricture, but that is not a very good idea. By simply stricture, they will take it sadly. That is not good…Stricture, that materially there are so many laws and regulative principles to do; if you do not, you’ll be punished. That may be, but they should develop the idea of love. That is…
Jagadīśa: Part of loving the children is forcing them to act according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious discipline.
Prabhupāda: Forcing should not be ordinary. Sometimes superficially you have to do that, but the basic principle should be love. That force is not material force. In the material world also, sometimes the father forces his son to do something. That does not mean the father is the enemy of the son. For the benefit of the son, sometimes he forces, sometimes he chastises. That is superficial. So that chastisement, or force, is also out of love.
Jagadīśa: So we cannot be permissivewith the children; otherwise, they will take advantage.
Prabhupāda: No, no, that is all right. I have already explained. Children, they are innocent. As you teach them, they learn. Teaching must be there, discipline must be there, sometimes force must be applied. But everything should be on the basis of love. That requires experience.
Dayānanda: It seems that it would take some time to develop that, rather than immediately…
Prabhupāda: Yes. The rules and regulations will teach him automatically. Just like this rising. Here it is said:
sāyaṁ prātar upāsīta
gurv-agny-arka-surottamān
ubhe sandhye ca yata-vāg
japan brahma samāhitaḥ
[Bhāg. 7.12.2]
gurv-agny-arka-surottamān
ubhe sandhye ca yata-vāg
japan brahma samāhitaḥ
[Bhāg. 7.12.2]
This should be taken up: japa, Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra and early rising, then offering oblations, Deity worship. These things should be practiced, then automatically they will develop.
Jagadīśa: Sometimes, unless we encourage them very strongly, they don’t want to chant japa.
Prabhupāda: You should practice, “Now, sit down! Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa! Hare Kṛṣṇa!” You should chant; they will chant. You should behave yourself very strictly on discipline, and they will follow.
Dwarkanātha: It seems that we must become humble. We must become servants to them in the sense that we do everything that we can to facilitate their service. Then when they see we are surrendering to our service, they will surrender to us.
Prabhupāda: Very good idea. Example is better than precept. You should all be personal examples, and they will do that. You do not practice, if you simply force them, that will not be good. Every one of you, if you rise early in the morning, they will also. If you think, “It is meant for the students, we are now liberated persons, we can sleep up to 7:30.”
Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, the teachers are all setting a good example in that way.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Jagadīśa: The teachers are setting a good example in that way.
Prabhupāda: Then it will be followed. You rest assured.
Jagadīśa: But there is a question that sometimes a teacher feels reluctant to encourage the children strongly to participate in the devotional activities.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Jagadīśa: Because he doesn’t want to force them to do devotional service.
Prabhupāda: No, that should be done. Teachers must do and students must also do it.
Jagadīśa: The love on the part of the teacher…
Prabhupāda: No. There it is recommended…Cānakya Paṇḍita said: lālane bahavo doṣāḥ—who loves unnecessarily, to make them stupid, that is not good. Lālane bahavo doṣāḥ. If you become lenient, then there will be many faults. Tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ…and if you strictly induce them, forcibly, to be disciplined, that is very nice. Bahavo guṇāḥ…that is good qualities.
Lālane bahavo doṣāḥ/tāḍane bahavo guṇāḥ/tasmāt putraṁ ca śiṣyam ca tāḍayen na tu lālayet.
Therefore, either to sons or the disciples, students, they should be always strictly forced. Don’t be lenient. Why should we be lenient? That is not good. They are after all “child,” so if you become lenient they will think this is the practice. No. You must get up. That is discipline.
Jagadīśa: We see that when they are given good discipline in that way, they respond nicely. They chant.
Prabhupāda: Yes, Why should you be lenient? That is your fault. But, out of “love” we shall see our sons or disciples go to hell. That is not good, that is foolishness. But when they are grown up, 16 years old, they should be treated as friend. Prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret.
Here are the instructions: from five to 15 years, all the sons and students should be kept under strict disciplinary order. If they do not follow, they should be chastised. Then as soon as one attains the 16th year, then treat him as friend. At that time, do not force. Then he’ll deviate, go out. That is happening in your western countries. Prāpte tu ṣoḍaśe varṣe putraṁ mitravad ācaret. All the instructions.
Dayānanda: We also have girls here, Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Dayānanda: We also have girls here, Prabhupāda, so this is śiṣyaś ca putraś ca, but what about girls?
Prabhupāda: Girl is also “putra.” Putra means putra/putrī, don’t think that. Putra means daughter and putra means son.
Dayānanda: Strictly also with the girls?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Dayānanda: Up to 16?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Up to 15. So according to Vedic civilization up to 15th year the girl is kept under the vigilance of the father, and when she attains youthful body, then she must be entrusted to another young boy to take charge. This is Vedic. Then the father becomes relieved of the responsibility. As soon as the grownup daughter is delivered to a young man, then they live peacefully.
Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, in our movement the fathers are sending their daughters to gurukula. Should the daughters remain in gurukula until they are married?
Prabhupāda: At gurukula the girls should be taught, especially, how to become chaste and, of course, an expert in cooking. Then, she will never be neglected by her husband. Her life becomes very happy.
Dayānanda: Some of our girls are also intelligent in Sanskrit.
Prabhupāda: That is all right. They can read śāstra, but these are the primary conditions. Then, she will be educated. She can teach, she can preach.
Jagadīśa: Prabhupāda, I heard that you suggested that the girls can be initiated when they are ten, so they can cook in the Deities’ kitchen. I think that is a good suggestion. They won’t chant 16 rounds, but if it is enforced…
Prabhupāda: That is compulsory what I have given. Attending the functions of the temple and chanting on their beads—automatically they’ll advance. Especially the obligation of chanting, and if you are chanting, that is the essence. So in every kīrtana function, every ārati, have a nice kīrtana. That speaks… [pause]
Gurukula means we should always know that. All the students, they should be educated in such a way that they become good citizens, good devotees, and they know the values of life. Other schools—they do not know. They become cats and dogs. They do not know what is the value of life.
Therefore, the whole world is in a dirty condition. Students are not educated. They are educated to become polished dogs, that’s all. They remain a dog, polished dog. Śruti means to educate the students to become human beings. That is the difference.
[break] I am running continually. What is the difference? There is no difference, so it is equally gross. But if you teach that “No, running is not our business. Our business is self-realization.” Yes. And the difficulty is there was no scientific teaching of spiritual education before this movement, at least in this age. Everyone bogus if you are after scientific spiritual understanding.
But because everyone is after material name, fame, and gain, the so-called swamis or priests and yogīs, they have also taken this as a means of earning this material fame, name and material gain. They have no knowledge. That is a challenge. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a challenge to all these rascals.
That is the special significance of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It is a challenge to all classes of rascals. So how much we should be strong and just remain. It is a challenge to all rascals—so-called priests, so-called swamis, so-called yogīs, so-called politicians. They do not know. They have no knowledge.
Just like in our country, Vivekānanda—he also came to your country. He had no knowledge; he came as an Indian sādhu. [Sarcastically] Vedānta! And he advertises in India that: “Now all the Americans have become Vedāntists, Hindus, something, etc. [Scornfully]
He did not know what Vedānta is, and he came to preach Vedānta. There is no name of Kṛṣṇa, no smell of Kṛṣṇa in their society, and they are “Vedāntists.” Therefore, my, some of my Godbrothers, they gave me this title, “Bhaktivedanta.” Vedānta means bhakti. That was the desire of my guru mahārāja, that this boy will preach Vedānta, but bhakti. Vedānta means bhakti.
See the argument from Bhāgavad-gītā. Kṛṣṇa says, “By Vedic knowledge one is to understand Me.” Try to understand the logic. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. Vedaiś ca sarvair [Bg. 15.15].
There are different Vedas—Sāma Veda, Ṛg, Atharva, and then there are corollaries—Upaniṣads, Vedānta-sūtra, then Purāṇas, Mahābharata, Rāmāyaṇa—these are all Vedas, Vedic knowledge, explained in different ways for different classes of men. So, therefore, Kṛṣṇa says vedaiś ca sarvair, all Vedic knowledge. Four Vedas, Upaniṣads, Vedānta-sūtra and Rāmāyaṇa, Mahābhārata, Purāṇas, all these Vedas. What is the purpose of studying all this Vedic literature? To understand Me.
Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyo. So this Vedic knowledge is there. People are expert [some are expert, not all]. So why do they not understand Kṛṣṇa? This is the next question. “Vedāntists” means [they are advertising they are Vedāntists, but they do not know what is Kṛṣṇa. They’re manufacturing an imitation Kṛṣṇa by their mental concoction. If they knew Kṛṣṇa, then why would they manufacture Ramakrishna? Hmm? They did not know Kṛṣṇa. It is a fact.
Otherwise, why should they present a false Kṛṣṇa, Ramakrishna. Ramakrishna, at the time of death, he informed his disciple, Vivekananda, “I am the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa. He [Vivekananda] accepted it, and he preached on that in the Ramakrishna temple. If I am the same, then why not go to the original Kṛṣṇa? He is becoming an important man, being the same Rāma and Kṛṣṇa, why not the original Rāma and Kṛṣṇa? That intelligence he has got. They accept it.
So why he could not understand? Supposing he has studied Vedānta. But why could he not understand Kṛṣṇa, and why is he presenting a false Kṛṣṇa? What is the reason? Tell me in your answer. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaḥ [Bg. 15.15].
Through Vedānta, Vedas, it is acknowledged that one can understand Kṛṣṇa. But they did not understand Kṛṣṇa. Why? Supposing they have studied all the Vedic literatures, but why did they not understand Kṛṣṇa? What is the answer?
Aśoka: They did not understand the Vedānta.
Prabhupāda: No, suppose they understood, or studied. Yes, they did not understand. Why then, that is the question. Why did they not understand?
Brahmānanda: Kṛṣṇa says nāhaṁ prakāśaḥ sarvasya [Bg. 7.25]. I do not reveal Myself.
Prabhupāda: Why Kṛṣṇa refuses to be manifested to them? Why? I am asking why.
Jagadisa: Because they are envious of Kṛṣṇa.
Dayānanda: Because of Bhaktivedanta!
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Dayānanda: Because of Bhaktivedanta!
Prabhupāda: Yes, here is the answer! Their Vedānta is zero; there is no bhakti. Therefore, it requires the help of Bhaktivedanta. Not this rascal Vedānta. Kṛṣṇa says, bhaktyā mām avijānāti. You may read all the Vedic literatures, but if you have no bhakti, then you cannot understand. That is nāhaṁprakāśaḥ sarvasya. Then He will remain concealed. Never understand Him.
These people—they have no bhakti. They transfer bhakti to goddess Kālī, who is worshipped by the persons in the lower grade of life. Tamo-guṇa. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante ’nya devatāḥ [Bg. 7.20].
Goddess Kālī or Durga, or any demigod—they are worshipped by persons—hṛta-jñānāḥ. They have no knowledge. Especially hṛta jñānāḥ—whose knowledge is taken away, gone to hell.
Aśoka: Prabhupāda, they worship for success in bhakti.
Prabhupāda: That’s all right, you can get success, but what will you do with this success?
Aśoka: Use it for Kṛṣṇa.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa does not say that you worship goddess for successful worship. Kṛṣṇa never said that. Kṛṣṇa says, mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66].
Where does He say to worship goddess? Does He say? Why do you worship goddess? That is for the materialistic person. There is some material gain. They can worship goddess. But for getting the mercy of Kṛṣṇa, there is no mention that you worship goddess. Where is this stated? If you worship goddess, then you can worship Me. Is this stated? Why do you do that?
Universal. Mām ekaṁ. Beginning. That’s all. Ekaṁ—one, means universal. But why do you accept? That is ignorance. We have no objection if you pray to goddess for Kṛṣṇa bhakti. But there is no need! If Kṛṣṇa wants to favor you, He does not depend on goddess’ favor.
Suppose if somebody wants to see me, if I say, “Yes, I want to see him,” it does not depend on another’s favor to see me. Similarly, Kṛṣṇa said that: “Just surrender to Me; everything will be all right. This is called eka-niṣṭhā. You do not require."
Kṛṣṇa says that, “You go to My representative."
tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
[Bg. 4.34]
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti te jñānaṁ
jñāninas tattva-darśinaḥ
[Bg. 4.34]
He never says that you go to goddess Kālī, Durgā, He doesn’t. He condemns—kāmais tais tair hṛta jñānāḥ—go to My representative. The Vedas also say—tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet. It never says—tad-vijñānārthaṁ—one should approach something else, some demigods.
No. Gurum evābhigacchet. But they are also devotees of the Lord, so we have no disrespect for any demigod. But it doesn’t require. People did not understand Vedānta simply by studying Vedānta. But Vedānta should be studied from the bhakta. Therefore, Bhaktivedanta. We don’t read Vedānta without bhakti. That is our specialty.Vedānta is required.
Without Vedānta knowledge, knowledge is not perfect. But through bhakti. So, they did not accept bhakti. Therefore, they could not understand Vedānta. Misrepresented. This so-called Vedāntists’ society, what is their value? They could not understand what is the objective of Vedānta. They think that Kṛṣṇa and a false Ramakrishna are the same. Vivekananda teaches, “Why are you searching after God. There are so many gods loitering in the street. Daridra-nārāyaṇa. Why are you going to Nārāyaṇa?
Brahmānanda: He also said, “Instead of cultivating tulasī, cultivate brinjal [eggplant].
Prabhupāda: Yes. Puffed-up materialist. [Sarcastically] And he wanted to please the Lord. Therefore, he has not been successful.
[To Brahmānanda:] You were going to his classes?
Brahmānanda: You saved us.
Prabhupāda: Hmm?
Brahmānanda: You saved us.
[long pause, some inaudible conversation]
Jagadīśa: There was one more question about when the girls get older. You’ve already mentioned that they should stay at gurukula. Sometimes the parents may want to take the daughter home when they are ten or eleven years old. They may cause a distraction from the temple service. So, whether that is all right also?
Prabhupāda: You can request them, but if they do not hear you, what can I do?
Jagadīśa: But the boys? If the parents want their young sons to live at home and attend gurukula during the day and then go home at night, is that a good policy?
Prabhupāda: Gurukula means they must be residing.
Jagadīśa: Up til 15 years?
Prabhupāda: At least. Boys can live here up to 25th year, until they are married.
Jagadīśa: 25th year…
Prabhupāda: [simultaneously] If they want to marry! [laughter]
Jagadīśa: That answers all our questions, Prabhupāda. Thank you very much.
Everyone: Jaya Prabhupāda.