Participants:
PrabhupādaŚyāmasundaraDevoteeDevoteesHayagrīvaKarandharKarāndharaPradyumnaĀtreya Ṛṣi
Śyāmasundara: Today we are discussing two more scientists. Who came after Darwin, evolutionists. The first one is Thomas Huxley. Darwin saw that only that in nature there was a natural selection process and he called that evolution, survival of the fittest. But Huxley...
Prabhupāda: There, here is the mistake. Natural selection, nature is not selecting. The soul—is selecting. It, it, it is not that nature is selecting a certain type of house. It is the man who will reside in the house—he is selecting the type of house. You cannot say that there are different types of residential houses. In nature, nature can supply the ingredients. You require bricks, stone, wood, so many things you require. Nature will supply, "All right, you take this," but the type of the house that—you make, not nature makes. So there, here is a great mistake that nature is selecting. Nature is not selecting the soul—is selecting and that they do not know. They, we, we should be practical. When I, I prefer a table like this it is—my selection, not nature's selection. Nature can supply me the wood and I prepare according to my selection.
Śyāmasundara: But, but my selection must depend upon the conditions. If it is cold I must build a warm house, if it is hot I must build a cool house...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be the selection is mine, not natures.
Śyāmasundara: But don't I select in terms of the conditions?
Prabhupāda: You compare, the actual performer is the soul not nature. Nature can supply you the materials.
Śyāmasundara: But if, if ah it is cold you must build a warm house so that means nature is selecting which type of house.
Prabhupāda: No, nature you are selecting. You are feeling cold...
Śyāmasundara: But if you build a cold house you'll, you'll suffer, you won't survive.
Prabhupāda: No, no why shall I... When I feel cold naturaly I will select to make a warm house.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The theory is that if you do not select...
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ..the warm house the nature will select to destroy you. And once nature destroys you because you did not select the most intelligent decision...
Prabhupāda: No...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...why did not have...
Prabhupāda: My... My brain... First of all my selection. Just like when I become criminal I select my life in the jail.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Śyāmasundara: Oh I see.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That they don't understand.
Prabhupāda: Anyway, this rascal thing that the judge or the magistrate puts him in the jail. The judge and the magistrate has no business to put him in the jail, why? You are selecting.
Śyāmasundara: So nature will present a set, a set of laws and you select either to follow them or reject them?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā [Bg 13.22]: kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya sad-asad-janma-yonisu.
[aside:] take them, hurry.
Devotee: Bhagavad-gītā.
Prabhupāda: Yes. These different species of life is due to his selection of a particular mode of nature. The souls. And thus he is given the facility of taking birth in a certain type of species. Just like I am, I have got house for rental; now I ask you what sort of room you want. You say, "I can pay $100"...
Śyāmasundara: Oh you get what you pay.
Prabhupāda: Yes, determined, determined. The selection is yours, so this, these rascals this do not know. Nature is forcing but the original selection was mine. I selected to associate with... The nature has got three types of modes of nature. So as soon as I associate with certain... Just like here, here is also nature is working. It is working on the modes of goodness but the drunkard is not coming here, he is not selecting this. He is selecting the brothel.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: This also applies to all living entities Prabhupāda, right?
Prabhupāda: All living entities. Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Even the trees, even...
Prabhupāda: Everything...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everything, just like I told you that consciously or unconsciously this naked boys and girls in your country they will get next life tree.
Śyāmasundara: Supposing a seed of a tree falls on the ground, isn't it nature that determines whether it will grow or live or be stunted or grow big by the conditions of the, the rain and the snow?
Prabhupāda: Yes nature gives you the facility—how to grow.
Śyāmasundara: Hmm.
Prabhupāda: That's all right but the selection is mine. There is a landlord gives you the facility, you select the apartment. Then you ask landlord, "Sir I want this facility or this that pipe is not working or the heat is not working." So he helps you.
Śyāmasundara: And then if you don't deserve it you don't get the heat fixted or the pipes.
Prabhupāda: Yes. So first thing is that it is wrong premises. That nature is giving, no. The first [break]...
Karāndhara: They don't see any background causing nature. They just see natures effects.
Prabhupāda: Nature is father's servant, nonsense. Such a gigantic nature is working whimsically because he is whimsical.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So Prabhupāda, according to our philosophy then there is nothing that happens in nature which is without reason.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: That is out of just—luck or chance.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: Mayādhyakṣeṇa prakṛtiḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]. Read.
Pradyumna: It's a
puruṣaḥ prakṛti-stho hi
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
[Bg 13.22]
bhuṅkte prakṛti-jān guṇān
kāraṇaṁ guṇa-saṅgo 'sya
sad-asad-yoni-janmasu
[Bg 13.22]
Prabhupāda: First of all explane this, explanation.
Pradyumna: "The living entity in material nature thus follows the ways of life, enjoying the three modes of nature. This is due to his association with that material nature. Thus he meets with good and evil amongst various species."
Prabhupāda: That's it. That is it.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: His association. Now we associate with drunkards, brothels then we get next life a hog, a camel.
Śyāmasundara: Hm. He advised change by association...
Prabhupāda: Not that a human body evolves to a camel's body. According to that theory he cannot do.
Śyāmasundara: No.
Prabhupāda: He cannot do. But here we just get I shall even if you have got this human body next life you become a camel body. But your, your evolution theory is finished then.
Karāndhara: Think of it a giant wardrobe and you have 8,400,000 coats...
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Karāndhara: And you decide, you tell the tailor which coat you want...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karāndhara: And he supplies.
Śyāmasundara: So you have to pay for it.
Prabhupāda: Yes... So according to Bhagavad-gītā this, this kind of evolutionary theory is not actual. Evolution is there you get there it is Brahma-vaivarta Purāṇa. Eh? It is said: aśītiṁ caturāṁs caiva lakṣāṁs tāñ jīva-jātiṣu; 8,400,000 of species of life; jīva-jāti. There from a bee, from a, the, the living entity is passing through. From a bee, then he gradually gets the human form of life, tad apy abhalatāṁ jātaḥ. Now this opportunity is missed if he does not take shelter of Kṛṣṇa. If he takes shelter again of the three modes of material nature then next life he can be converted again, punar mūṣiko bhava. They do not know that—the human being can evolve next life the body of a cat, dog or camel. So where is the truth of this nonsense evolution?
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda does the, does the spirit soul assist in the building of his own body or is the body in the womb built simply on the modes of nature? Does he help or is he just given the body?
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Śyāmasundara: Does the spirit soul assist in building the body or does... Simply the ingredients of nature combined to form it without his help in the womb?
Prabhupāda: Yes. He desires a such body and he is put into the womb of a particular mother and the mother is the format. So he develops a body according to the mother.
Śyāmasundara: Oh the body is already formed by the mother?
Prabhupāda: No, no—it begins forming as soon as the spirit soul takes shelter.
Śyāmasundara: Then it forms.
Prabhupāda: Then it forms, develops.
Śyāmasundara: Before then it is the egg?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: The egg.
Prabhupāda: Nothing. There is nothing.
Śyāmasundara: Nothing.
Prabhupāda: After sexual intercourse the two kinds of secretion they mixup and emulsify and immediately if there is no disturbance by contraceptive method. Then the living entity takes shelter.
Śyāmasundara: They say, the scientists say that each sperm which is entering from the male is a living entity. Each of millions of sperms...
Prabhupāda: May, maybe, maybe.
Śyāmasundara: When the, the sperm enter there are millions of them...
Prabhupāda: That's all right...
Śyāmasundara: And each one is moving...
Prabhupāda: That can be accepted, that there is God.
Śyāmasundara: Hm. But only one out of those will enter the egg, only one out of those millions.
Prabhupāda: Not egg, one, one of them who is allowed to stay—by superior arrangement.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So Prabhupāda this material philosophy is based on chance. In other words the material philosophy, the materialist philosophy does not believe in the cause of all causes.
Prabhupāda: That, that is nonsense. Every... There is no chance.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: This, but in the spiritual philosophy they also use the word chance and luck.
Prabhupāda: Why?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They also state that there is chance in the spiritual life.
Prabhupāda: Chance means just like we are talking of philosophy. Somebody by chance comes in this meeting...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: How is that Prabhupāda?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: How is that somebody comes...
Prabhupāda: That is possibility, then otherwise what is the use of preaching.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: But that person...
Prabhupāda: We are preaching means that that there is the cause because we are giving chance.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So the chances spiritualised is created by the mercy of the master or Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: It's not that is caused, is caused by, his cause derived...
Prabhupāda: We are giving, we are inviting everyone please come to us. So this chance is given.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: This is chance—this is luck. You provide the luck.
Prabhupāda: He is creating a situation so that others may take the chance. That chance you can say but this chance is also caused by us.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Śyāmasundara: But what do you mean when you say causeless? Causeless mercy.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Causeless.
Prabhupāda: Causeless mercy is that, that is—you did not ask me, a still I give you.
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Haribol.
Prabhupāda: You do not ask me, you did not ask me, nobody, to come to USA. I have come—this is causeless.
Devotees: [Laughter] Jaya.
Śyāmasundara: Well should we discuss this...
Prabhupāda: But that is also not strictly causeless because I have come on the order of my Guru Mahārāja.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: But his order was causeless.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotees: [Laughter]
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Kṛṣṇa is causeless.
Śyāmasundara: Ah?
Prabhupāda: So actually in the higher sense there is nothing causeless. You can take it in this way just like I have come, let me go to America. So I have come, nobody invited me. It can be taken as causeless.
Śyāmasundara: The only things that relate with Kṛṣṇa are causeless.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Only things as they are related with Kṛṣṇa are causeless. Isn't it? If they are... Otherwise we can see everywhere cause and effect.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Kṛṣṇa can be... Make anything without any cause. Because He is the cause of all causes, He is making, therefore He is this prime cause.
Karāndhara: So when scientists observe phenomena and they are just observing how Kṛṣṇa has caused things. It is the consecutive sequence how He causes...
Prabhupāda: Parāsya śaktir... He is working by His diverse energies. They are unable to see the energy. Or they are seeing simply the energy not the energetic.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda shouldn't we refute the system of investigation which is ascending rather than descending process? The scientists way. Could they find any, try and find any truths? That this system that they are investigating, like the way Darwin investigated could he possibly have come to find the truth?
Prabhupāda: No.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: He couldn't..
Prabhupāda: Because Darwin is himself defective. So his ascendancy is also defective.
Śyāmasundara: They, they would send it out as far as they can go, a chunk but they don't know [laughs]... How much further.
Prabhupāda: The process is defective...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The process is defective...
Prabhupāda: He cannot go to the real road. Suppose you have to go to the beach. Now you have taken to this road for going. Where you will go? The beach is this side. So in the beginning he is mistaken then where is the goal?
Śyāmasundara: [laughs] Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Andhā yathāndhair upanīyamānāḥ [Bhāg. 7.5.31]. Blind. One blind man is trying to lead other blind men.
Śyāmasundara: Should, should we discuss this Thomas Huxley? Systematically just his philosophy particularly.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Because I don't want to go off on too many tangents or we will never finish. His, anyway he saw that there are two types of evolution not strictly one type as Darwin saw. He, Darwin saw that there is only one type, a changing of bodies. That, but Thomas Huxley observes that there is also ethical process of human evolution. In other words, according to, to Darwin's law, that bodies are changing according to survival of the fittest. But if you look at that on ethical level that would mean those who are the goo... the best cheaters, the best killers, the best robbers. That these would be the most morally fit to survive in that [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: Might is right.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. But he says, "No, that there is an ethical process of human evolution whereby educating, by education of what is the correct morality that we can evolve in that way. That, that we are..." The control of our evolution is in our own hands, in other words. "It is not nature... Nature is not guiding ethical evolution but it is within our hands to evolve our own ethical evolution."
Prabhupāda: [coughs] Within our hands, just like I say that, "You don't steal." [coughs]. This is ethical. And I give you example also, that if you steal you will see that here is a thief he is arrested he is going to jail. You will also go to jail. So you have heard me, you have seen but a still you steal. What is the defect? [coughs] Where is the ethics?
Śyāmasundara: The ethics...
Prabhupāda: You have heard from preachers that stealing is not good. From your teachers, from your nice books, stealing is not good. You have seen the man who has stolen is going to jail and still why you steal it?
Śyāmasundara: He says, he would say that, "The man has not been properly educated."
Prabhupāda: Therefore that is required. Education.
Śyāmasundara: That's what he said. He said, he says, "Darwin's theory is those who are fit survive but it should be that those who are worthy to survive." So he says, "We have to qualify ourselves to be worthy to survive."
Prabhupāda: Nobody is fit to survive, that is a nonsense thing. But one can elevate himself, just like we are trying to elevate the consciousness of the human society to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is educational process. And by this education when actually one becomes Kṛṣṇa conscious then he becomes fit to survive. Not to die again.
Śyāmasundara: Worth, worthy, he has the worth to survive.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Fit, fit is something different than worth.
Prabhupāda: Hah.
Śyāmasundara: Fit is a physical...
Prabhupāda: Or you can say he's not going, no more he is going to die.
Karāndhara: Well the only real virtue of their so called ethics. It doesn't take into account devotional service to the Supreme. It just extends the principle of sense gratification.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karāndhara: That I won't steal from him, so he won't steal from me.
Śyāmasundara: Well that, that isn't part of the philosophy. We were just using the general terms.
Karāndhara: But when they say ethics that's, that's what they are alluding to.
Śyāmasundara: You don't know what he means, we haven't unfolded his philosophy yet.
Prabhupāda: Now one thing is. This training, education means—training. This is essential and actually by educational evolution one can survive. Otherwise nobody can survive.
Śyāmasundara: That's, that's his thesis. He says that Darwin's theory is too mechanical and logically it is false because we would all be a society of murderers, killers and the might makes right. But...
Prabhupāda: That is the European philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: They are attacking other nations, colonising, killing them. Just like you Americans you have killed the Indians, now you are fit to survive there. And the Russians will come and kill you.
Karāndhara: Even the application of ethics, you have to have force.
Śyāmasundara: He uses the example of the Europeans and some barbaric tribes in Africa. That the European consciousness has evolved to superior level because they have adopted morality. Whereas the tribes in the jungles are killing each other simply and there is no morality they are not very superior in intelligence. He uses that example.
Prabhupāda: Then how the Europeans and Americans have come to this morality?—By education.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: The others they are not educated, they are not enlightened. Therefore real education is the cause of evolution to the highest perfection.
Śyāmasundara: During, during this period of history following Huxley there was a widespread belief that by educ... If everyone got enough education then everything would be improved, everyone would live properly but and that is still going on. That concept but it's... The education...
Prabhupāda: No, everyone cannot be enough education. Everyone cannot be enough rich.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Everyone cannot be enough beautiful...
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: By nature's that is also another and everyone cannot take birth in a high family.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible. That depends on his past deeds.
Śyāmasundara: Ah, so their democracy is...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Their democracy is not logical?
Prabhupāda: Then, then you have to take chance, that same moment. One child is born in a very rich family at the same moment one is born. If you take an astronomical calculation that both is getting the astronomical facilities but one is born in a poor family, one is born in a rich family.
Śyāmasundara: And if you educate them both the same. It does not mean that they are both going to turn out as good citizens.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes so many boys are going to school some of them becoming in future very well known personality, another ordinary. Why?
Śyāmasundara: So the...
Prabhupāda: Educational facility was given to both of them. Eh? Just like in your country the education is free but why not all educated?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So there are two factors, one resulting from past activity and one resulting from the present education...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...provided?
Prabhupāda: Yes. There are three; bīja, kūṭastha... Ah. Just like you, you sow some seeds though some of them grow, next day. And not that all the seeds have grown, another seed will take a little time to grow. So really whatever we act that is just like seed...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that seed it remains and some of the seeds has grown little, some of them has fructified, some of them is getting gaining the result and you have to enjoy or suffer.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But everything is coming from the seed.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Pāpa-bīja, pāpa-bīja. Eh? Kūṭastha, phalonmukha... There are three stages, one is just going to fructify, one is already fructified, one is still in seed form. The... We have got many seeds within us that is not yet fructified. What is fructified now we are enjoying or suffering.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: But Kr... When you take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness this very seed is destroyed. So there is no question of coming out fructified. There is seed, just like you take peas if you fry it and then the same fried peas if you sow there will be no more.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Plant.
Śyāmasundara: The scientists call these seeds perhaps genes? The genes are latent propensities.
Prabhupāda: No, it is not genes.
Karāndhara: It is karmic law.
Devotees: [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: The scientist cannot see it.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible. It is subtle. It is living in my mind, intelligence and ego. They cannot... Can they see the mind?
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Then how can they see it?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So material education is how to take care of these seeds once they fructify?
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's it.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Spiritual education however...
Prabhupāda: Spiritual education is to destroy that seed.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And to start the seed of devotional service...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ..to plant of...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...love of God
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: To destroy the material seed and sow the spiritual seed.
Śyāmasundara: Accept what it is favourable or reject what is unfavourable.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: So both seeds are there.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Both kinds of seeds are within us.
Śyāmasundara: Hm. Now so...
Prabhupāda: And if you destroy this material seed then you will not grow again material body.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That is: tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. By giving up this body no more material body because this material seed will be destroyed.
Karāndhara: So there is no material way to do that?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Hayagrīva: So there is no material or scientific way to destroy that seed?
Prabhupāda: That, that seed can be destroyed by Kṛṣṇa. Therefore He says that; "You surrender unto Me and I give you protection from all reaction of sinful life." That means immediately destroyed, He can do that. Because He is the supreme, He can do that. Just like you are condemned to death but the king can excuse you. No other man can do this. No law can protect you. But if the king desires he can do it—protect you.
Karāndhara: That is why all their attempts at atheistical ethics and advancement of humanitarianism, it always fails.
Prabhupāda: Oh, it is useless. It is useless.
Śyāmasundara: So getting back to his, to his thesis, do you agree then...
Prabhupāda: Only humanitarian work is to awaken his Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is the humanitarian.
Śyāmasundara: But do, do you agree with him so far he says that, that, "The evolution of our morality is within our own hands it isn't determined by selective nature." It isn't determined by our environments?
Prabhupāda: No, it is in our own hands. We can make selection.
Karāndhara: Free will.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Or free will we got too.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that, "That which is most morally worthy ought to survive."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Śyāmasundara: He says, "That which ought to survive." Is what we should...
Prabhupāda: You should have—most morally advanced is he who is Kṛṣṇa conscious.
Śyāmasundara: So he is...
Prabhupāda: He will survive.
Śyāmasundara: He ought to survive...
Prabhupāda: Ought to no—he will.
Śyāmasundara: So he will survive.
Prabhupāda: There is no question of ought. He will.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: What is his definition of morality?
Śyāmasundara: Ah.
Karāndhara: Why should I ought to survive?
Śyāmasundara: That, that is flexible depending upon how we... Whatever we choose.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Well but this civilisation that he is talking about is a material civilisation, isn't it? In other words the spectrum that he is talking about is limited to the, to the man's limited, his planning. [?]
Prabhupāda: Right this is very intelligent question. Morality, now we say that cow killing—is immoral. And these karmīs say that it is moral because by eating beef we develop our brain.
Karāndhara: Yes, strong.
Prabhupāda: Yes so we become strong. Now how this in-case which is morality? It is selected. There are so many dual things like this, one says this is moral, one says this is moral.
Karāndhara: So we need a medium of measurement. A standard.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. He says that it is practically by, by agreement, a unanimous agreement.
Prabhupāda: That every man... The, the meat eaters will agree?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Cow killing is very nice...
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Karāndhara: And one other...
Prabhupāda: Is that cow killing morality?
Karāndhara: Why not just train everyone to be, to be killers?
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Now he is, he says that, that according to Darwin we would all be killers. The best one, the best killers. But we have evolved certain things which we [?]...
Prabhupāda: Now we have left aside Darwin, now onto Huxley. Who will select morality? If you go by votes then the morality in one country is immorality in other country.
Śyāmasundara: Well he says that which is most worthy will survive. It is changing it is evolving that which is the most...
Prabhupāda: Who will, who will decide this is worthy? If it depends on popular votes then who will decide this?
Karandhar: If we are taking a position of responsibility how will we work?
Śyāmasundara: That history, history will decide it. That, that, that we were bombing in history.
Prabhupāda: That mean, he has no proposition which is morality.
Śyāmasundara: No, "Because it is always changing," he says.
Prabhupāda: That, therefore...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: There are two things that he is missing Prabhupāda.
Prabhupāda: No, we don't agree in that. Morality cannot be changed.
Śyāmasundara: Hm. Hm.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: His value is based on maximisation of pleasure for the society.
Prabhupāda: That's alright. That depends on different types of society.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And because he doesn't see... I, as little as I know about him, he doesn't see the spectrum of spiritual life. With that...
Prabhupāda: He has no idea of spiritual life. That is—I know.
Śyāmasundara: He is, he's not talking about specific moral standards. He is talking about the process.
Karāndhara: But if he was.. How he decides?
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "Man's intelligence will decide to curb the egoistic instincts and act in a moral way", that's all.
Prabhupāda: So man... That means...
Śyāmasundara: What is moral is a different thing...
Prabhupāda: ..those persons who are accepting immoral things as moral—they are less intelligent.
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "The intelligence will, will decide."
Prabhupāda: Well then if he accepts something immoral—as moral—then you are less intelligent.
Karāndhara: So if he's...
Śyāmasundara: So that isn't intelligence if you have intelligence... Proper intelligence you'll find what is moral, is that acceptable?
Prabhupāda: Yes, proper intelligence. Then...
Śyāmasundara: Proper intelligence.
Prabhupāda: ..Ah, so the proper intelligence. How you can decide here is the proper intelligence?
Karāndhara: So it is by his thesis, the message, he is concluding that nature has a direction.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Karāndhara: If intelligence is ruling...
Śyāmasundara: It's calling...
Karāndhara: ..then nature has a direction.
Śyāmasundara: Nature has a direction and morality has a direction...
Karāndhara: So what makes a direction as unarbitrary? Where is the direction?
Śyāmasundara: He says that it is gradually... Just like Darwin saw things were going from simple to complex and therefore from inferior to superior. He also sees that morality is going from inferior to superior because in the ancient times they...
Prabhupāda: That's...
Śyāmasundara: The caveman they...
Prabhupāda: ..that's all right inferior to superior. My point is—who is to decide the real morality?
Śyāmasundara: He says, "Man."
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Nature, he says, "Nature."
Prabhupāda: Man, man is ignoring [?] ...
Śyāmasundara: He says, "No, not nature." He says, "Man."
Prabhupāda: As a man, man, he is rejecting Darwins.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He is also man.
Śyāmasundara: No, he is rejecting Darwin's proposal that, "Nature forms morality," and he says that, "Man forms morality", chooses morality. Not nature.
Prabhupāda: So the uneducated, then the man must be highly educated.
Śyāmasundara: That he doesn't discuss he only says that...
Prabhupāda: That, that if you...
Śyāmasundara: ..that much.
Prabhupāda: No, man. When man will select... that I have already put before you. That I say that I am a man and cow killing is immoral and other says this, "No, it is not immoral, it is moral." Then who will decide?
Śyāmasundara: Well that he doesn't get into, he only says that men will decide. Man will decide.
Prabhupāda: Man cannot decide because doctors differ. That is the proverb, even highly educated doctors they differ in diagnosis.
Karāndhara: Yes. But so many of the modern philosophers that that is their conclusion. That it is man's responsibility to mould this world and to make things advance. They come to that conclusion and they are very expert at criticising faults but they never offer any way to do it.
Prabhupāda: Man cannot do it—that is our position. Man cannot.
Śyāmasundara: Man cannot do it. How then is it done?
Prabhupāda: By God—Kṛṣṇa.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Śyāmasundara prabhu when you say man, does it that you mean mind and psychology of men originally...
Śyāmasundara: No I am strictly sticking to the philosophy...
Prabhupāda: That is morality, just as Kṛṣṇa says...
Śyāmasundara: I don't want to get into such...
Prabhupāda: Sarva-dharmān parityajya,mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66]: you give up all this nonsense.
That man's description of morality, immorality these are all nonsense. Therefore He says, "Give up all this nonsense, just surrender unto Me." This is morality.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: This is morality. One who follows the, this morality he is perfectly moral.
Śyāmasundara: But can't a man not use his intelligence to, to improve his ethical goals, reject animal instincts, curb his ego and improve his motivations?
Prabhupāda: No, because he is a fool. He may be, he may pose himself a philosopher just like Darwin posed himself as a philosopher and Huxley says, "No you are a fool." So somebody else will come he will say, "Huxley you are a fool." So these fools estimation will go on when the most intelligent Kṛṣṇa will come then all the fools will learn.
Karāndhara: But meanwhile the evolution is going exactly the opposite way they're thinking. People are not becoming more elevated...
Prabhupāda: They are degrading.
Karāndhara: They are more degraded.
Prabhupāda: Degraded.
Śyāmasundara: Well we are still back in 1880.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: We are still back in 1880 when Huxley's writing all this. In that age of Queen Victoria everything seemed to be improving. She was introducing morality...
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is improving.
Karāndhara: They think that everything is improving now.
Prabhupāda: They improve by plundering other countries. By colonising. Sending Lord Clive a great thief and great cheater. They were... They think that if we produce a cheater...
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: .. And thieves like Lord Clive that is improvement. That is there ignorance. Therefore they are suffering now. Now that Lord Clive is standing as a statue and the country cannot repair their house...
Śyāmasundara: Teardown.
Prabhupāda: Which Lord Clive...
Śyāmasundara: 10 Downing Street.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Lord Clive by plundering all other countries he built up some nice buildings. Now they cannot even repair.
Śyāmasundara: They were, they were preaching strict morality but they were acting in another way.
Prabhupāda: They do not know what is morality.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: They do not know.
Prabhupāda: That is our...
Karāndhara: There is a hypocrisy of influence except someone who is God conscious.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karāndhara: Whatever they say it is simply just for their own interests.
Śyāmasundara: Any man to a top. [?]
Prabhupāda: They do not know. Man cannot know. Man is defective, he does not know anything. Abodha-jātaḥ, śāstra [Bhāg. 5.5.5] says abodha-jātaḥ: all rascals. Abodha-jātaḥ. Therefore he has to find out teacher.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Man is born fool, otherwise why you are sending your children to school? It is to be supposed that he is born fool.
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "Men achieve a better progress in a society than they do alone."
Prabhupāda: Yes. Society if the society is good. A man can become good in our society, not in this ma... Mason's society. What is it?
Karāndhara: Mason's.
Prabhupāda: Mason's.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: If the society is good then by [why] Mason. That I was explaining.
[Clinking sound as something drops]
Śyāmasundara: And from that verse in Bhagavad-gītā, "By the association..."
Prabhupāda: Yes, saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ [Bg. 2.62]. Saṅgāt sañjāyate kāmaḥ.
Śyāmasundara: He says that morality is, is based...
Prabhupāda: Therefore the ideal... Morality and everything can be learned by the human society from ideal man—ideal society.
Śyāmasundara: Hm. Therefore...
Prabhupāda: Now we have to find out who is the perfect ideal man, perfect ideal society. Then you [indistinct]. That is our proposal. Here is the perfect being—Kṛṣṇa and here is the perfect society, Kṛṣṇa consciousness society. You come here take education—here you become perfect.
Śyāmasundara: He says, "We have to find out that ideal which will make us most worthy to survive."
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is, but how he will see? He will die himself, how he will see? He survive...
Śyāmasundara: Well, he bases on...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: He bases on life on this planet...
Śyāmasundara: He bases his morality on sympathy. He says that, "All men are born innate with innate sympathy for other people. So that this sympathy if it is developed properly that this will make him moral."
Prabhupāda: But he, he is a still defective because he is sympathetic with man and not the animals.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he is defective.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And also he is talking about survival on this planet and he doesn't seem to be...
Śyāmasundara: Well that's another thing.
Prabhupāda: So his proposal is defective.
Śyāmasundara: He doesn't say that there is sympathy in the animals but I've seen...
Prabhupāda: But you, you must have sympathy with the animals, you are man.
Śyāmasundara: But I mean in animals I've seen sympathy also, that I've seen dog's have sympathy for...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Everything, everywhere there but because you are higher animal —so you must have sympathy with the lower animals. Why you are killing the lower animals? Where is your sympathy?
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: What kind of moralist you are? That is also bogus.
Śyāmasundara: What does that word mean; sympathy?
Prabhupāda: Sympathy means, if by something I feel pain. So why should I induce you also to feel such pain? This is sympathy.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: If somebody pricks me I feel pain. Therefore I should not allow anyone to prick you also. This is sympathy.
Śyāmasundara: Golden rule...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...Christian, Christianity...
Prabhupāda: That I will ask, "Don't prick him," although I will not feel—but I know. I have got sympathy that you are like me—so you feel. So before your feeling—I ask him not to do this. This is sympathy.
Śyāmasundara: But it's not that we covered it up we don't...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: If it is developed properly then we will choose this—the proper morality.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That development depends on education.
Śyāmasundara: Hah.
Prabhupāda: Proper education. So without proper education; without proper association; there is no question of development and there is no question of sympathy. There is no question of morality.
Śyāmasundara: Hm. So education is the key.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Now the question, what kind of education?
Śyāmasundara: Hm. But he says that, "Our education must come about not by imitating nature but by combating nature." He said that...
Prabhupāda: You cannot combat, nature. That is impossible.
Śyāmasundara: He... This, this idea of combating nature began to grow at that time by men like Huxley. And now you see it...
Prabhupāda: No that is not Huxley saying everyone is trying to, that is perpetual.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is trying to combat nature therefore in the Bhagavad-gītā it is said:
daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
[Bg. 7.14]
mama māyā duratyayā
[Bg. 7.14]
You are trying to combat with the nature but it is impossible. It is impossible. Just like nature gives you death, you are trying to live that is combating.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: By nature's law you must die.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: And you are trying to live.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So that is combating.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So nobody has become successful.
Śyāmasundara: Right, that survival means to combat nature...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ..successfully.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Combat.
Prabhupāda: And nobody has become successful. Therefore nature is always strong.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: The combat is going on.
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "Nature is non-moral."
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: "Nature is non-moral."
Prabhupāda: They are the most moral. He does not know what is nature.
Śyāmasundara: Nature is the most moral.
Prabhupāda: The most moral.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Śyāmasundara: How is that?
Prabhupāda: Because he is abiding by the order of Kṛṣṇa.
Hayagrīva: Those who do wrong get punished and those that do right get rewarded.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: How nature can be mistaken? In the Brahma-saṁhitā it is said:
sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā
chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā
[Bs. 5.44]
chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā
[Bs. 5.44]
The Durgā, the material nature is so powerful that you can create, you can maintain or you can annihilate, sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya—sādhana. Such a powerful.
Śyāmasundara: He bases his morality on sympathy and he says, "Nature has no sympathy."
Prabhupāda: Nature has all sympathy.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya. Actually today scientists have proved that, Prabhupāda. That nature is very moral.
Prabhupāda: Let them see, all sympathy. Because nature is working under the...just like police.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: The police apparently is most unsympathetic.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: But if it is ordered by superior official, "Take care of this man." Oh police will be great friend and protect him.
Śyāmasundara: Just like it would seem to, to somebody...
Prabhupāda: Is it not?
Karāndhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Oh, you have no danger police is always protecting you.
Śyāmasundara: It would seem to someone who was just seeing that if one man's house burned down...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ..and another man's house did not burn down there would be no sympathy involved. Arbitrary—chance.
Prabhupāda: No arbitrary, no chance, that's it. It is plainly stated—yasya avyayaḥ:
sṛṣṭi-sthiti-pralaya-sādhana-śaktir ekā
chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā
icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā
[Bs. 5.44]
chāyeva yasya bhuvanāni bibharti durgā
icchānurūpam api yasya ca ceṣṭate sā
[Bs. 5.44]
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Just like my disciples if they are actually disciples then whatever order I give they will carry out. So nobody can expect something order which is immoral, from me.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: Therefore their carrying off orders cannot be immortal.
Śyāmasundara: [Laughter] right.
Prabhupāda: Cannot be immortal. Although instrumental but because they are carrying out higher authorities order, it cannot be immortal.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: The apparent punishment by nature is also sympathy. It's sympathy. Correcting. Just like nature is material nature mother Durgā has got the trident in her hand always pushing. So the... That is also indirect moral, so that he become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Giving him all kind of miserable condition pushing him to the conscious—that you surrender to Kṛṣṇa you become free.
Śyāmasundara: Their, their idea is that if, if it is possible for a house to burn down we can create so many systems of fire alarms, fire brigades, fireproofing, fire extinguishers. So that nature will not be able to destroy us. We can prevent fires... Houses from burning down.
Prabhupāda: No, even in spite of your so many arrangements. We... Nature if likes he can smash all these things.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And an example for that is that for example in agriculture they found so many ways...
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. I was just going to talk about that...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ..to stop, to stop pests control over animals. And in fact one example is in some farms near New York they found that they killed certain insect and because that certain insect was killed nature has stopped carrying seeds from one flower pollination of the pollinating the plants. And therefore all the vegetation everything is going to die.
Śyāmasundara: Just like we saw in Hawaii...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because their intelligence is imperfect...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The highest intelligence is nature.
Prabhupāda: Because by nature's order you cannot stop eating of the insect.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes and they tried and they...
Prabhupāda: Because they are also beings—sons of God. They must live also. It is spiritual communism. If some insects is eating grain, let them eat. Don't stop it.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: There will be enough production, let them eat. You eat and they eat.
Śyāmasundara: Just like...
Prabhupāda: But if you think that I shall eat and they shall be killed then nature will stop production.
Śyāmasundara: There are so many examples of how man has failed to really combat natures successfullness.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: It has always backfired.
Prabhupāda: It is not possible.
Karāndhara: Every time someone dies...
Śyāmasundara: Every time. They introduced DDT a chemical to kill all the pests but now it is killing every... It is killing people too. It's in... it doesn't break down in nature, it is present everywhere DDT. It is poisoning everyone.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: A better example is that mechanically they are so advanced in the civilised nations but they have such high rate of people going crazy, committing suicide.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The same [indistinct]
Prabhupāda: More disease, disease has increased.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Disease has increased.
Prabhupāda: Proportion of disease has increased.
Śyāmasundara: They are always saying, "Oh but India so full of disease." But, just because you do not see them here, they are in the hospitals. There is more disease here than in India.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And they are taking pills everyplace.
Prabhupāda: There is more drugs of here.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. There is more disease here. More epidemics here, by far.
Karāndhara: Doctors in drug... Doctors in drugstores.
Prabhupāda: More here.
Śyāmasundara: Oh by far in India you don't see very many diseases.
Karāndhara: Say they go to the doctor every day.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes.
Karāndhara: Everything they have, they go to the doctor. To get some pills.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: And half a dozen pills they take every morning.
Śyāmasundara: Diseased people in India they go on the street and beg. So you think, "Oh, everyone is diseased." But here they are in hospitals you don't see them.
Prabhupāda: Right... So you cannot conquer nature.
Śyāmasundara: No.
Prabhupāda: That's not possible.
Śyāmasundara: So ah...
Prabhupāda: You can conquer nature by devotional service to the Lord. When Kṛṣṇa says, "Nature you don't bother him." That's all.
Karāndhara: But that is their foolish call to arms. Conquer nature, gathered together mankind...
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. Science.
Karāndhara: Consolidate our energy and conquer nature.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Control nature—control.
Prabhupāda: That is not possible.
Karāndhara: They think that they have got some research now where they're researching with satellites and different kinds of chemicals where they will control the weather.
Śyāmasundara: They already in space.
Karāndhara: When they control the weather they will be able to make it rain when they want it to rain. And sunshine when they want the sunshine.
Prabhupāda: All crazy fellows.
Śyāmasundara: They are actually successful in it partially. I read it in...
Karāndhara: It's only [?] a little phase, yeah.
Śyāmasundara: They can make it rain by, by spraying the atmosphere with a certain chemical...
Karāndhara: Spraying the clouds...
Prabhupāda: That a child can run on an engine, they have got childish engines.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: By winding it or giving some power the engine runs. But is that an any use? So what is the use of such rain?
Śyāmasundara: It will just rob rain from some other place.
Prabhupāda: No not robbing rain. Suppose everyone, 1 mile before water. What is the benefit? He cannot; hundreds and thousands of miles immediately in a second. Hose, hose, over inundated.
Karāndhara: But what they want to do they want to stop...
Prabhupāda: Even there is no need of rain in the sea it is also inundated.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Karāndhara: They also want to stop hurricanes and tornadoes. They, they are able to see in satellites now from way up above...
Prabhupāda: Then, then on, on the whole their only disease is to imitate Kṛṣṇa.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Jaya.
Prabhupāda: That is their disease. So imitation is never purpose.
Karāndhara: Somebody else is already controlling the weather...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Karāndhara: Through the nature—Kṛṣṇa but they want to take over the control.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa gives the prescription that you get rain in this way. Eh? What is that. Yajñād bhavati parjanyo, parjanyād anna-sambhavaḥ [Bg. 3.14].
Śyāmasundara: By performing sacrifice...
Prabhupāda: Ah. That they will not do. They will spend for experiment millions of dollars...
Karāndhara: Yes and once...
Prabhupāda: And by performing yajña it can be done. No they will not do.
Śyāmasundara: They think, they see the Indian tribes, ancient tribes doing sacrifice and they think that that is barbarian.
Prabhupāda: But the, they do not know what is sacrifice. Just, just when we made the fire sacrifice is that barbarian?
Śyāmasundara: To their idea...
Prabhupāda: It is barbarian?
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Karāndhara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karāndhara: They take it as primitive.
Śyāmasundara: They go to see the Navajo Indians in Arizona having their Raindance and they take many photos and they think it is very quaint. But...
Prabhupāda: Well Raindance is... But this fire sacrifice—as we do...
Śyāmasundara: They have fire sacrifice and everything too. These Indians.
Prabhupāda: Oh.
Karāndhara: But the modern, the modern mind takes over the rituals and primitive, for less evolved intelligence perform some sacrifice. Rather than going out and taking things into their own hand.
Prabhupāda: But you have not been successful. By taking in your hand.
Śyāmasundara: Well they will say, that the idea is that to eliminate all of the conditions that make us struggle for survival. If we can eliminate the struggle...
Prabhupāda: Actually because we perform saṅkīrtana the Indian government won over Pakistan. Yes. The newspapermen came to me, "What, what is your direction of this war?" "You must fight—and surely you will gain." So actually it happened to this harināma-saṅkīrtana-yajña. But that Indira Gandhi was taking the credit.
Śyāmasundara: She's a demigod.
Prabhupāda: She has become daina. Formally she was devil now she is daina.
Śyāmasundara: But they will say that we have eliminated the conditions that causes to have to struggle. Just like we have better fruits, nice vegetables, orchards.
Karāndhara: They always, they point to their successes [indistinct]
Śyāmasundara: Plenty of food...
Karāndhara: It's human successes.
Śyāmasundara: ..plenty of medicine, everything is there.
Prabhupāda: And because you have plenty of food, plenty of medicine therefore you have plenty of rogues also.
Śyāmasundara: [Laughter]
Prabhupāda: That is also another...
Śyāmasundara: Yeah. That's a fact.
Prabhupāda: ..by-product, plenty of rogues.
Śyāmasundara: Drug addicts, criminals, prostitutes...
Ātreya Ṛṣi: The problem with the scientists is they do not understand the needs, the hierarchy of the needs. They understand a little bit—the need. They think man needs food, man needs shelter a man needs a little friendship, affection. But they do not go beyond that. They provide him all that and the man is more and more miserable.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Because that is our formula, āhāra, nidrā, bhaya, maithuna. Give him eating, give him facility for sleeping, give him facility for sex life...
Karāndhara: Decorum.
Prabhupāda: ..and give him assurance from danger. So these are primary necessities. So the animal can be satisfied with these primary necessities. A man cannot be. Because he has developed consciousness, so he wants something more.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: Therefore in the human society there is art, music, philosophy so many things. Religion. These things are there.
Karāndhara: More ways to eat and sleep.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Karāndhara: More ways to eat and sleep.
Prabhupāda: But if these developed consciousness is again, I mean to say; rewarded for the matter of eating, sleeping. Then he will never be satisfied. These things, these higher consciousness should be utilized for developing Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then he will be happy.
Karāndhara: That's how they are spending all there energy, just like instead of being satisfied with a little simple food. They have to have 100 restaurants to go to. Different restaurant every day, on every street different restaurant. They think that will increase their pleasure of eating every night to eat at a different restaurant. Or sleep in a different hotel.
Prabhupāda: And next go to doctor. For some pills—digestive pills or eat some liquor, then forget, advertisement [indistinct]? Or something like that.
Śyāmasundara: Drown it all out. All the suffering. I think we discussed once before that even if you eliminate the conditions of struggle the men will create more because they like to struggle.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: They'll... It is very easy in their job, let's say. But on the weekend when they are supposed to relax, leisure time. They will go to the mountains and hike real hard and camp and cook.
Prabhupāda: And next in the morning, they'll shave, they'll play the tennis, golf...
Śyāmasundara: Tennis.
Prabhupāda: ...golf.
Śyāmasundara: You can't eliminate struggle it, it is part of our nature.
Prabhupāda: You give him rest, he will not rest, he will go.
Śyāmasundara: Isn't this struggle part of the nature of the living entity?
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Isn't this struggle...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Part of our nature?
Karāndhara: To be active.
Prabhupāda: No, to work—hard work is the pleasure of the materialistic man.
Karāndhara: Modes of passion.
Śyāmasundara: But even, but even Kṛṣṇa...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Due to passion, yes.
Śyāmasundara: But even Kṛṣṇa although He had no reason to, He liked to fight sometimes or this or that. He like to have activities.
Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa, whatever Kṛṣṇa does—it is for pleasure.
Śyāmasundara: Ah.
Prabhupāda: But you cannot do for his pleasure, for your pleasure. You create another displeasure.
Śyāmasundara: In the U.S in the material world. But is there a spiritual counterpart of this desire for struggle, for...
Prabhupāda: There is no struggle, Kṛṣṇa's not struggling. When He is dancing with the gopīs, He is not struggling, He is enjoying.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Prabhupāda is it, is it all our desires and struggles. The social bowel [?] of our desires and struggles, of every living entity...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: ...is basically to find Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Then that's the natural; and every other struggle and desire is the practical...
Prabhupāda: No, that is not natural that is unnatural.
Śyāmasundara: No, no but what Prabhupāda was saying is that in, in activity in the material world is struggle. But activity in the spiritual world is enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: Enjoyment.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Is this is a perversion...
Prabhupāda: Just like... For a diseased man to get up from the bed is a great painful affair. But for a healthy man, he jumps over the bed and begins to work. And a diseased man will see and say, "Oh how he is suffering so much. He jumps I cannot get up."
Karāndhara: Just like some devotee's, some devotee's before they came to Kṛṣṇa conscious. They weren't doing anything, they stopped doing anything. They had given up even a purpose for living but when they come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness then they begin to work and now they are working harder than ever.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Just like...
Prabhupāda: They don't feel any displeasure.
Karāndhara: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Just like when you were always travelling around the world. Sometimes if someone saw, they'd say, "Why are you struggling so hard, why?" But for us it wasn't struggle, it was enjoyment.
Prabhupāda: No, it is pleasure.
Śyāmasundara: So anyway the essence of his philosophy, the purport is that, "Man can make his own world."
Prabhupāda: Hm?
Śyāmasundara: Man can make his own world.
Prabhupāda: Yes that we also say. But if you, that is Gītā says:
yānti deva-vratā devān
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
[Bg. 9.25]
pitṝn yānti pitṛ-vratāḥ
[Bg. 9.25]
If you want to go to, go to the planets of the demigods, you can go. You can if you want to go to the planets, easy journey other planets. And if you want to go to back to home back to, you can go. Now it up in your selection. What you want. If you want to remain here you can remain here. So you have got your intelligence, Kṛṣṇa has given you all facilities. Now you make your choice. For then you are going to hell or heaven or Kṛṣṇa. That is your choice.
Śyāmasundara: According to this Huxley about Kṛṣṇa or God. He said that we must remain what he calls, "Agnostic." He, he coined this term from the Greek derivative from the Sanskrit jñāna. Jñāna means in Greek—gnosis, gnosis. So opposite of gnosis is agnosis or agnostic. That means...
Prabhupāda: Ajñāna.
Śyāmasundara: We can't know God.
Prabhupāda: Ajñāna.
Śyāmasundara: Ajñāna. We cannot know God even though He may exist we cannot know Him. This is...
Prabhupāda: Why, why he cannot know Him?
Śyāmasundara: Because He doesn't appear in phenomenal...
Prabhupāda: And if He appears? If He appears.
Karāndhara: Or He can't appear.
Prabhupāda: No, ahm you, you say you cannot see him in the kilometre.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But God He can appear and teach you. Then you can know. So our process is that, we don't try to get knowledge of God by speculation or we try to get knowledge of God from a rascal or fool. Philosopher. We take direct when God appears and leaves the instruction Bhagavad-gītā, we take first.
Karāndhara: Well he had a little bit of intelligent perspective because at least he realized that by empiric method they never realized God.
Prabhupāda: That, that is nice.
Śyāmasundara: He is the one who introduced this term and this concept agnosticism. At least he doesn't deny God, like the atheist.
Prabhupāda: That Marxism man said he agrees that God cannot be known by our present senses.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That we also say. But it is not that God cannot be known, present senses can be purified. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means purifying the senses and purified senses, you can't go wrong.
Śyāmasundara: He introduced another concept which has become the byword of all our modern thought called, "Epic Phenomenalism." Which means that the consciousness and mental phenomenon are produced by physical processes. Consciousness, the mind, these are physical things.
Karāndhara: Just like we have...
Prabhupāda: That mind is physical we accept this.
Karāndhara: What about consciousness?
Prabhupāda: Consciousness is also physical.
Śyāmasundara: Physical. These are products of matter combination of ingredients create consciousness.
Prabhupāda: Yes subtle physical, subtle physical.
Karāndhara: But their extension of that is... [End]