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PrabhupādaŚyāmasundaraAcyutānandaBhavānandaDevoteeDevotee (2)DevoteesDevānandaHayagrīvaIndian manNara-nārāyaṇaRevatīnandanaYaśodānandana

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Śyāmasundara: So there is another psychologist, Carl Jung, he's also very important. A follower of Freud, he followed Freud.

Revatīnandana: To some extent.

Śyāmasundara: I mean chronologically. His, whereas Freud's, Freud's idea was that unconscious processes are invariably infantile, animal, or pathological. Jung said that some unconscious energies are sources of positive and creative activity. That the unconscious is important for the growth and development of the mature and well-adjusted personality. Freud investigated the unconscious and found that the negative side, that our unconscious life is always threatening us, that it is the cause of pathological...

Prabhupāda: What do you mean by unconscious life?

Hayagrīva: Subconscious.

Śyāmasundara: Subconscious, that which we are not consciously aware of there is always...

Prabhupāda: That means I have got the consciousness but it is covered.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He says that, "That unconscious part of our mind is dangerous, infantile, animalistic." But Jung says that, "The unconscious can also be positive and helpful to our growth of our personalities, that it can be an asset to understand this unconscious life."

Prabhupāda: Well, but I think that the subconscious status as it is covered by the present consciousness. Similarly, it can be covered by Kṛṣṇa consciousness, so that those subconscious states will be no more be able to react.

Śyāmasundara: Hm.. He sees a positive or creative function of this unconscious...

Prabhupāda: Just like the other day I was citing the śloka of Yamunācārya about sex life. The subconscious status is there, sex life, but because he has got Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he is spiting over it. That means the subconscious state cannot overcome.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: So our policy is that you become fully Kṛṣṇa conscious and then all the subconscious status which is gathered for life after life and they are stored. They are in stock, they will not be able to overcome.

Śyāmasundara: He sees that the mind is composed of a balance of conscious and unconscious. Just like light and dark, there's an equal amount but that the function of the personality is to integrate the conscious and unconscious functions. For instance if one had a strong sex desire, if somehow he were able to cultivate or channel that into creative art or a creative value. Just like this brahmācārya, that sex impulse is channelled into higher thinking—about Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: That is our process. Just like sex impulse is natural for everyone in the material. But if we think of Kṛṣṇa embracing Rādhārāṇī or dancing with the gopīs, then our sex impulse becomes subordinate—no more stronger. Bhakti... Hṛd-rogaṁ kāmam āśv apahinoti [SB 10.33.39]. Hṛd-rogaṁ kāmam, this is a heart disease to be lusty. But if anyone hears about the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs, through right source. Then this hṛd-rogam, this lusty desire in the heart will be suppressed and he will develop devotional service.

Śyāmasundara: Hm... This is an example of what Jung would call individuation, where the energies of the unconscious sex impulse are channelled into a conscious and creative activity of God realization. So those energies are being utilized in a proper way. This is what he would call integration or individuation.

Prabhupāda: That, that this thing I was explaining, this prakṛti. It is very scientific. Kṛṣṇa is the only puruṣa—enjoyer and if every one of us, I mean to say, starts help Him in the propensity of His enjoyment, that is our enjoyment. That is our enjoyment—predominated and predominator. Just like, crude example; it is not exact, that: a husband wants to enjoy wife and the wife voluntarily helps him in that enjoyment, the wife also becomes joyful. Similarly, the supreme enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa and if we help Him in His enjoyment, then automatically we become also joyful. Predominator enjoyer and predominated enjoyer. Both of them enjoying but one is predominated—one is predominator. So predominated, when he helps to the predominator, there is reciprocation of enjoyment.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda. There's one thing, I think if I understand it. Jung is saying that from the, the man or the living being and conceiving of him biologically sex desire is there. From the body comes sex desire. He says then that sex desire can be elevated for self-realization or for some kind of higher not so...

Prabhupāda: Sex [?] no, no.

Revatīnandana: No, but for some kind of higher pursuit, that same sex energy can be channelled in a, what you would call a higher way.

Devānanda: Sublimation.

Revatīnandana: But don't we say that thee originally there was desires to enjoy coming from the soul. If it is channelled toward the body it becomes sex lust..,

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: ..but then if it is channelled higher it becomes higher aims or aim for advancement. It's not coming from sex, it's coming from the soul, is that correct—the desire to enjoy?

Prabhupāda: No. Try to understand. Sex desire is there in everyone. So once sex desire is bhoktā, then male sex desire and female sex desire. The sex desire is there in both male and female, but some from impartial view, it appears that the male is the enjoyer and the female is the enjoyed. So both of them are segits [sic]. So the female, if she agrees to be predominated, enjoyed, then naturally she also becomes enjoyer... So living entities are described as prakṛti—female. So when the living entities agree to help Kṛṣṇa's sex desire, then they become happy.

Yaśodānandana: What is meant by Kṛṣṇa's sex desire?

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Yaśodānandana: What is the meaning of the words, "Kṛṣṇa's sex desire"? Kṛṣṇa's satisfaction?

Prabhupāda: Yes... Sense enjoyment, you can say. Sense enjoyment. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor of the senses. So when we help Kṛṣṇa for His sense enjoyment, then naturally we also. Just, the same example, just like a rasagullā. A rasagullā is to be enjoyed. So the hand takes it and puts it into the stomach. The hand does not enjoy it directly. And when it is put into the stomach, the hand also enjoys, the stomach enjoys, the eyes enjoys—everything. The direct enjoyer is Kṛṣṇa and all others, indirect enjoyer. By satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, others will be satisfied. Not directly. Just like a beloved wife, when she sees the husband is eating nicely and he is enjoying nicely, she becomes happy. She becomes happy. So there are two different categories: the predominated category and the predominator category. So by seeing the predominated [predominator] happy, the predominated becomes happy. That is thee...

Śyāmasundara: So, so in one sense you could say that the conscious mind is the predominator and the unconscious...

Prabhupāda: Both of them are conscious...

Śyāmasundara: And the.. but...

Prabhupāda: ..predominated and predominator. Both of them are conscious.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Without consciousness there is no life.

Śyāmasundara: But in the individual personality if there is an unconscious and a consciousness, then the unconsciousness, or the unconscious state, should be predominated by the conscious state. The conscious state...

Prabhupāda: That is practically being done. Unconscious or subconscious states sometimes come out.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: They are not always present.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: But consciousness is always there.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. But if the consciousness is not the predominator then sometimes, sometimes a person's activities will be irrational or unconscious.

Prabhupāda: No. There is no question of unconscious. Subconscious, that is there.

Śyāmasundara: Subconscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Yaśodānandana: What is the exact meaning of the term, "Subconscious"?

Prabhupāda: Mm? Consciousness?

Yaśodānandana: I understand the principle of consciousness, but what is the exact meaning of the word, "Subconscious"?

Prabhupāda: Subconscious is not acting at the present moment but it comes out sometimes.

Śyāmasundara: These psychologists say that quite often the unconscious is acting through the conscious, only we don't know it.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I say. The subconsciousness is there but they are not manifest. But sometimes they are manifest. All of a sudden manifest. There is no connection. Just like a bubble in the pond. All of a sudden a bubble comes up. You see. So the coming out of the bubble, the energy was there within. All of a sudden it comes out, "Put blup!" Yes. And you do not trace out why it came, but the, it is to be supposed that it was in the subconscious state; all of a sudden it has manifested.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Devānanda: That bubble coming up is a sort of a proof that there is a subconscious which is holding that bubble and then it's released it, but what it's posited by these psychologists is that the subconscious nature is moving subconsciously. What it means is that we're not conscious of it; it's acting on a subconscious plane.

Śyāmasundara: It's called a shadow.

Devānanda: And so, and so our consciousness can be modified by our subconsciousness without our being consciously aware of it.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Devānanda: That's, that is their idea.

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily.

Devānanda: We're unconscious of the activities of our subconscious...

Prabhupāda: For sometimes subconscious state manifests which has no connection with my present consciousness.

Revatīnandana: Can we say that those subconscious states of which sometimes reveal themselves are like stored in impressions on the mind?

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is stored, stored impression.

Revatīnandana: They are laying there, they can potentially manifest...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: But they don't have to. But they would posit that there is a...

Prabhupāda: It is just like photograph. If you take so many snaps, but not all of them immediately used.

Revatīnandana: So they would posit that there's a mental functioning going on, a thinking functioning going which we're not conscious of. I think we don't agree with that. Is that correct? We say that there's one mind, sometimes mental impressions come that are stored...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: ...but in that storage area of the consciousness, there is no thinking going on there. Is that correct? The unconsciousness mind is not thinking like the conscious mind.

Prabhupāda: No, no. But the impression is there.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Prabhupāda: All of a sudden it comes out.

Śyāmasundara: So Jung says that, "There are two types of unconscious processes. The first..."

Prabhupāda: Why does he say unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: Two types of unconscious processes.

Prabhupāda: No, no..

Revatīnandana: No. Subconsciousness.

Prabhupāda: Subconscious, that is the right term. Why does he say? Even in psychology they call, "Subconscious," why he's speaking, "Unconscious"?

Śyāmasundara: Well the German word is unbewust, which means, "Unbeknown." So we have translated, "Unconscious," but it means more like, "Subconscious."

Revatīnandana: [indistinct] to say, "Subconsciousness."

Prabhupāda: Unconsciousness, of course there is, that is not also the same thing. That is not manifest. Unconsciousness, but it will manifest.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "There are two types of subconscious state. The first one is the personal unconscious, or those personal items which are highly individual from one's previous childhood, from his infantile history, certain things occurred, they were repressed, and so on. These are stored in our own unconscious state and they are aroused into consciousness in dreams and through psychoanalysis. But he also posits another type of unconscious, or subconscious, state called; "The collective unconscious." He says that evolution has predetermined the human brain to react in terms of basic principles derived from the experience of many generations." In other words, that my ancestors had left impressions in my brain from the time of my birth, how to react according to their experiences. Is this true, that there is a collective experience which is passed on?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That collective experience we, we say paramparā... Evaṁ paramparā-prāptam [Bg. 4.2]. That is collective experience.

Revatīnandana: He would be meaning more like..., we would say that there is a German mentality, Russian mentality, English mentality, that...

Śyāmasundara: No, no, no...

Revatīnandana: ...by generations they develope the way...

Śyāmasundara: No, no, no...

Revatīnandana: ...they think is cultural. Cultural.

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that, "These archetypal tendencies are tendencies to react in a certain manner originating from the remote past, which are true for all humans whether they are primitive savages or whether they are modern men." Just like, well any tendencies that we...

Prabhupāda: But we don't take any experience from these primitive savages. That is not paramparā.

Śyāmasundara: He would say...

Prabhupāda: Savages cannot give us any advice or instruction.

Śyāmasundara: Just like when we investigate different folklores, different mythologies all over the world, we find certain symbols which are the same. For instance the swastika, we find that in the Indian mythology and you find it in Maya or Inca. Western Indians' philos... ah mythologies as well. And different symbols which are common to man all over the globe, whether they are primitive or whether they are advanced, he says that, "These are archetypal images which for thousands of generations have been passed on in man's consciousness. So that we are composed not only of our own individual thoughts and ingredients but also the ingredients of our ancestors. Is this a fact?

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is called tradition. That is called tradition. But that is not paramparā. Paramparā is different. Paramparā means we get the right knowledge from the Supreme. It is not something ak..., what is called? What he was speaking?

Śyāmasundara: Acquired.

Prabhupāda: Acquired.

Śyāmasundara: Archetypal. Means the original type.

Prabhupāda: My acquired knowledge can be changed by understanding from superior.

Śyāmasundara: But...

Prabhupāda: Just like generally we have got bodily concept of life, but Kṛṣṇa says, "You are not this body." So this knowledge is not coming to me by tradition, but I learn it from great authorities like Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: But he would, for instance, say that, "Our, our means..., our way of understanding Kṛṣṇa as a supreme father, as our cause and so on, is an archetypal tendency that is shared by all living entities.. all human entities. That they have the same tendency to react in that way, to understand someone as their father, as their cause and they will represent Him in different ways but always..., always similar."

Prabhupāda: Yes. We see that. Yes exactly similar. Rather, this father is indication. Kṛṣṇa, or God, is the supreme father. It is similar. As father has many sons, similarly Kṛṣṇa has many sons. You can say it is similar, yes. As sons are born, children are born of father, similarly, we are born of Kṛṣṇa. It is similar.

Śyāmasundara: For instance in the dream life, our dream life, in the dream life of savages or anyone else on this planet certain common occurrences take place in the dream. Sometimes we feel we are flying in dreams, or sometimes we feel that there's a disruption coming from below, or certain symbols are there, common to all men. He calls these, "Archetypes or collective, the collective unconscious." That all human beings share these propensities.

Devotee: Universally one.

Prabhupāda: Mm. So we have no objection in that way.

Revatīnandana: Śrīla Prabhupāda, is it possible, or is it confirmed that the similarities in symbolism and cultural relationships which are similar in civilizations all over the world. Can that be due to the fact that they are all coming from the same source? Five thousand years ago there was one culture?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Revatīnandana: So you find the same symbols in the South American Incas and then as you find in India as you'll find in the Pacific Islands because they are coming down from the original Vedic culture in different states of...

Prabhupāda: Vedic culture or no Vedic culture, there are so many similarities.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: It doesn't matter. Because you are living being, the similarities are there. Just like every living being eats. It is similar to everyone. Every living being sleeps. It is similar to everyone. Every living being mates. It is similar to everyone. Every living being fears. So we have to take the greatest common factor.

Śyāmasundara: Hm. He would say...

Prabhupāda: There are so many similarities.

Śyāmasundara: He would say also that, "Every human being may draw a circle to represent something which is whole and complete."

Prabhupāda: That is religion. These four principles are similar to every living entity. But when you come to the human platform, there is religion. That is not in the animal. That is the distinctive function of the human being. So if human being without any religious principles, he is similar to animal. Dharmeṇa hīna paśubhiḥ samānāḥ [Hitopadeśa 25]. Therefore in every group of civilized human society, there is some sort of religion. It may be Hindu religion, Christian religion, Buddhist religion, but tendency is to accept some religion.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: And religion means understanding of God and our relationship with Him. So the modern civilization, according to Darwin's theory, they are advancing to become animal. That's it. Therefore they are claiming their forefathers are coming from monkeys. That somebody said for the other day, Vivekananda was asked that, "Why your Hindu forefathers did not come, long years ago?" He answered, "Because your forefathers were jumping on the tree." [laughter] It is very nice answer. "Our forefathers did not come because your forefathers were jumping on the tree."

Śyāmasundara: So this investigation by Jung opened up a new kind of universality in philosophy because it was seen that the same symbols are common to all men, of all religions.

Prabhupāda: All living entities. And as soon as you come to the platform of human being, there is one similarity—religion. It may be under different name. Even in the aborigines, there is religion. Just like Red Indian...

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...they have their religion.

Śyāmasundara: And they have the same symbols, many of them.

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, that is a common concept. To accept some type of religion, this is common. Now, that type of religion may be different from me, but the principle is there. Just like eating principle is there, sleeping principle is there; similarly religious principle is there.

Śyāmasundara: And he said that, "Each culture or civilization, religion, they have the same understanding of the duality of existence, that there's an equal amount of dark, an equal amount of light. Which he calls the yin and yang aspect or the anima and animus aspect. Different names, under different names the same understanding is there in all religions.

Prabhupāda: Is that equality, darkness?

Śyāmasundara: Darkness and lightness—the duality of nature. Therefore unconscious and conscious, he calls; these two things. He says that, "Everyone has..., understands these are equal, balanced, these two stages, states of existence."

Prabhupāda: Not necessarily equal. Sometimes it may be imbalance. One side may be heavier than the other.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Actually he says that, "Most personalities are imbalanced and that the goal, the goal of life is to become balanced..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "...or integrated."

Devotee: What's the maumen? [sic] [?]

Śyāmasundara: So he says that, "Not only individual analysis and dream interpretation are there, but also we must examine folklore, myth, religions, symbolisms and all these, to get a better psychological insight into the unconscious process."

Prabhupāda: So better psychology is that first of all human being or lower than human being. Lower than human being, they have got four principles—eating, sleeping, mating, and fearing—and human being extra, religion. Now which religion is higher, that has to be studied. That answer is given in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: the religious system which develops for loving God, that is first class.

Śyāmasundara: Because by loving God, automatically you're unconscious and conscious states are all balanced...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...brought together.

Prabhupāda: The loving propensity is already there, but instead of loving God. So somebody is loving, Mr. Freud. So loving propensity is there, but the loving propensity is misplaced; therefore he becomes frustrated. Instead of loving Freud, if you love Kṛṣṇa then our loving propensity becomes perfect.

Śyāmasundara: This, this Jung, Carl Jung, I studied with his disciples in Zurich for six months one, one winter, and he came..., toward the end of his life he became very religious. At the beginning he was an atheist, but after this study he began to understand that the perfect end of psychology is to integrate or to become balanced as a personality. And the best way and the only way, the time-tested way, is to be religious person. So...

Prabhupāda: And lead it to, to become a religious person is to become lover of God. Did he love God or something else?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. He became very much religious and all his disciples are very religious, but in sort of a mystic way, not, not so much an organized religion. But a little bit of hodge-podge.

Prabhupāda: That is no—yes.

Śyāmasundara: [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Without clear conception of God, must be hodge-podge.

Śyāmasundara: But they lean toward the East, towards this Kṛṣṇa consciousness, in the end...

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Buddhism..

Śyāmasundara: Buddhism, Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Prabhupāda: Buddhism?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Tibetan Buddhism.

Śyāmasundara: And he had a great...

Prabhupāda: What is that Tibetan Buddhism?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: It is a mystical understanding of good and evil forces, embodied good and evil forces, demonic forces, demonic persons. So that at the time of death the person is supposed to be floating for some time and he can fall into the prey of demonic or be helped by good forces to achieve some liberation or higher birth.

Prabhupāda: So that means in one sense they are accepting sattva-guṇa and tamo-guṇa.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: Ah, yeah.

Śyāmasundara: Actually this Jung has had a great impact on modern thinkers because he took psychology out of the laboratories and made it more a human science. A personal, personality science that involves unconscious states, mystic states, religious states, not just something analytical and cold. And especially younger people are very much fond of Jung in this age, in these days.

Acyutānanda: It might be very hard to find but this Carl Jung drew a picture of what he thought the face of a realized soul might look like. A perfect.. a person in perfect knowledge. And that picture was printed and it looked like Prabhupāda.

Devotees: [laughter] Haribol.

Acyutānanda: There's a big book, you know that [indistinct] the big book?Yeah, the mouth and eyes are...

Śyāmasundara: His, his investigation of symbols around the world, he found that the symbols most used for someone who has realized the self are the jewel and the child—these two symbols. These are symbolic of someone who has attained the ultimate perfection. A jewel and the child.

Prabhupāda: Jew and the child...

Śyāmasundara: Jewel, jewel.

Prabhupāda: Oh, jewel.

Śyāmasundara: Jewel.

Prabhupāda: Jewel.

Śyāmasundara: And a child. These two...

Prabhupāda: How child has attained perfection?

Śyāmasundara: The same kind of innocent happiness that a child has.

Prabhupāda: Then when he grows he deteriorates.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah [laughs].

Prabhupāda: If he has attained perfection, how does he deteriorates?

Nara-nārāyaṇa: It's a Christian idea. The Christian idea that the persons who become like little children...

Prabhupāda: So whatever idea it may be, he could say it is perfect, then how it deteriorates?

Śyāmasundara: No, it's just a symbol of someone who has achieved perfection, that they are childlike, that they are happy, jolly, innocence.

Prabhupāda: That is another thing.

Śyāmasundara: Radiant.

Prabhupāda: But the child is not perfection.

Śyāmasundara: No. It's only a symbol.

Revatīnandana: The symbol should... For the only child symbolizes faith and...

Śyāmasundara: Love and...

Revatīnandana: ...natural devotion. Like Jesus said, "Unless you come to me as little children, you can't enter into the kingdom of God."

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's nice, that's nice.

Śyāmasundara: Even though Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa's always often portrayed as a child.

Revatīnandana: He's eternally child, sixteen years old.

Devotee: He already [indistinct]

Nara-nārāyaṇa: But they don't require the symbol they could have Nārada Muni, or yourself or Kṛṣṇa. Why do they require to have a symbol of a child? When you have the actual person.

Śyāmasundara: [laughs] Yeah.

Devotee: Then it couldn't be univerally applied. A symbol can be applied universally.

Śyāmasundara: Anyway, another one of his ideas is that, "The unconscious material on a person's personality sometimes emerges in the form of a complex, what's called, 'A complex'. This complex has the ability to initiate and organize behavior. Sometimes we say someone has a superiority complex or an inferiority complex or this complex or that complex. It means that they tend to act in a certain way. Inferiority complex means I consider myself inferior to others and I react in a very inhibited fashion. Or if I have a superiority complex I act in a very arrogant fashion." Like that. These are his observations that, "People who act in certain ways which are called 'complexes'."

Prabhupāda: So we are..., what we are? Inferior or superior? [laughs] Kṛṣṇa conscious, we think ourselves as servant of God. Is that inferior or superior?

Śyāmasundara: Well our process is not unconscious.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: Our process is not unconscious.

Prabhupāda: No. We are conscious.

Śyāmasundara: We are conscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So we do not rely on a, "Complex" to guide us, or an unconscious impulse to guide us.

Prabhupāda: No. We are not guided by impulse.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: We are guided directly, instruction from the superior.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Our process is to acquire knowledge from the superior. We are not guided by these complexes.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "There are two basic attitudes: an extrovert attitude and an introvert attitude. An extrovert has an outgoing orientation; they are always friendly and sociable. An introvert has an inward withdrawal from his environment and is always very quiet and meditative. These two types of personalities, he sees existing everywhere." More or less, we are these..., one or other of these personalities.

Prabhupāda: Muni. This is called muni. This.

Śyāmasundara: Introvert?

Prabhupāda: In... introvert, yes. Muni.

Revatīnandana: It's the introspective.

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Devotee: There's a difference between introspective person and an introvert. An introvert: somebody who is concerned with his false ego, turns in on himself, but he doesn't express himself outwardly to others, as an extrovert does. "Vert" means "to turn." So he's turned in upon himself, on his own personality. He's there with personality.

Prabhupāda: Self-centered.

Devotees: Self-centered, yes.

Devotee: Well an extrovert is also self-centered, because he sees himself as the center of a large social structure. But he only, he only considers his own personality without interacting with others.

Śyāmasundara: Also...

Devotee: The extovert tries to put his faced [?] personality...

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, they are mixed also with more or less one has one is one or the other...

Prabhupāda: Hm.

Devotee (2): Just like the basic example of Mahatma Gandhi...

Prabhupāda: But how do you say that man is a social animal? How can you avoid society?

Śyāmasundara: The introvert doesn't avoid society, but in all his activities he doesn't relate to other's actively. He'll go to school, he does the things that he has to do, but he's always very quiet and timid, shy.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: A mouse is an introvert, and a tiger is an extrovert. A tiger is an extrovert. He doesn't care for anyone. Grr! He just..

Prabhupāda: But the mouse is also.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: He's like that?

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: But in a very limited way. He's..

Revatīnandana: Well he's a small extrovert.

Nara-nārāyaṇa: He's a small section of himself.

Devotees: [indistinct, several talking simultaneously]

Revatīnandana: It seems like his, his introverted personality is actually covers two different personalities. One is that like the type of people who are dreamers and who are retreating from the world, and the other kind of people who are in actually introspective, who are looking for truth. There can be two people within that category. See.

Yaśodānandana: We have bhajanānandī and goṣṭhyānandī. Preachers and, and...

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, extrovert and introvert.

Prabhupāda: Silent devotees.

Yaśodānandana: Silent.

Śyāmasundara: Yeah, that's, that's the same classification. He sees everywhere people are one or the other of those. Active or passive.

Revatīnandana: It seems like the extrovert is, is with the rajo-guṇa, that the extroverted person's in the mode of passion—acting.

Prabhupāda: Yes rajo-guṇa.

Revatīnandana: But the introverted person could be ether in tamoguṇa or in sattva-guṇa.

Prabhupāda: Right you are.

Revatīnandana: So that is not clear.

Prabhupāda: It looks similar..

Revatīnandana: Yes, it looks similar.

Prabhupāda: Just like paramahaṁsa and mleccha-yavana. The paramahaṁsa is not under any rules and regulations, and the mleccha-yavanas they are also under.. no under.. no rules and regulations.

Revatīnandana: Like Śukadeva Gosvāmī they thought he was a madman which would be tamoguṇa, but actually he was transcendental [indistinct]...

Prabhupāda: Transcendental.

Revatīnandana: Yes.

Bhavānanda: So it's time for massage now, Śrīla Prabhupāda.

Prabhupāda: All right. [break]

Śyāmasundara: So today we'll finish...

Prabhupāda: Did it work nice?

Śyāmasundara: Yes. It's possible.Today we'll finish that psychologist Jung, Carl Jung. As we were discussing before, his idea is that there is a collective unconscious, there is an unconscious state of mind and there is a conscious state of mind. But these are... we say the inner. The working between these two, conscious and unconscious, determines the personality of the living entity.

[aside:] That's why.

The behavior of the living entity is determined by the interaction between his unconscious and his conscious...

Prabhupāda: That is called, in Sanskrit, jāgarti, svapna and suṣupti. When you are fully conscious, that is called jāgarti but then dreaming, that time also consciousness and another state, suṣupti—no consciousness. What is the value of life when one is, what is called? Operation?

Śyāmasundara: Anaesthesia.

Prabhupāda: Anaesthetic.

Śyāmasundara: This dreaming state he calls, "Unconscious," also.

Prabhupāda: No. That is conscious. I am dreaming, I am conscious. That is not unconscious.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "In this dream state..."

Prabhupāda: Your ah... Suppose if tiger is coming to attack me, I am crying and the people are hearing. How do you say it is unconscious?

Devānanda: I think it is a matter of terms.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devānanda: The subject matter of which one is unaware in the waking state is termed by him the unconscious. But there is consciousness there and because of that, the terminology is not...

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "The contents of the unconscious come into a conscious mind during dreams, all of our supressed..."

Prabhupāda: That is consciousness. That is dream. That you can say dream but you must analyze scientifically. Dream, dream is not unconscious...

Śyāmasundara: In other words...

Prabhupāda: But anaesthetic stage is unconscious. When your throat is being been cut up, you do not know.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Devānanda: Suṣupti.

Prabhupāda: But in sleeping state, if there is pinching immediately come awake.

Devānanda: And that awakened...

Prabhupāda: That is not unconscious.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. In other words, he says that there are many factors which are unconscious which determine our personality that we may not be aware of. Many hopes, many fears, many contents of our own consciousness that play upon our personality but which we are not aware of...

Prabhupāda: Yes, stalwart [?]. Just like when we are in the womb of our mother. Up to seven months we are unconscious. Death means to remain unconscious for seven months...

Śyāmasundara: Death.

Prabhupāda: ...that is death. Living entity does not die; he remains unconscious for seven months.

Devānanda: That's actually suṣupti?

Prabhupāda: That is suṣupti... This is death. Just like after operation, anaesthetic, when the medicinal effect is lost, it comes. Dreaming stage. Then consciousness. These are three stages: consciousness, dreaming, and unconsciousness. So he does not know that suṣupti. He's simply considering the dreaming unconscious. When you see dream, he thinks; mind works, that is not unconscious.

Devānanda: Well that's what, is it...

Śyāmasundara: His idea is that because there are so many unconscious factors that govern our personality, our behavior, that unless a person becomes. Becomes aware of these unconscious factors, then he is more or less a slave to them, to his unconscious life. So the whole point of psychology is to point out to a person all of his unconscious contents, that he becomes aware of them and faces them face-to-face.

Prabhupāda: That we are teaching.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That you are soul. But he remains unconscious state. That he [indistinct]. That we are teaching. We are simply, loudly speaking, "Please wake up. Please wake up. You are not this body. You are not this body." So these are the stages, just like tree. You cannot raise him to the consciousness. He is so much packed up in matter. That it is not possible. But he is also conscious. That is proved by Sir Jagadish Candra Bose. He applied machine: in the remote form he is feeling the pain when you cut. But it is not very manifest.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Just like the children, they are not so conscious, you operate. I have, I have got experience, my eldest daughter, she got a boil. When she was, say about less than one year... No, no. About six months. The doctor was operating, so Ei! Ei! Like that she was not crying. Yes, the operation was done very nicely. It was minor operation. So the human form of life is the developed consciousness of the living entity. In other forms of life they're more or less in dreaming state or unconscious state. But as living entity, the consciousness is there, in different stages.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, he finds in all mythology and religion and all of the folklore. He finds different symbols for the conscious state and the unconscious state. Just like for the unconscious state is often represented as an ocean.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Śyāmasundara: The unconscious state is often represented or symbolized by the ocean or a mother or as the...

Prabhupāda: Ocean?

Śyāmasundara: The ocean.

Prabhupāda: Ocean has no consciousness. It is matter.

Śyāmasundara: Well, as a symbol...

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: ...of the unconscious state. They are often represented as an ocean or as a female or called the animus, anima.

Prabhupāda: He mentions animals?

Śyāmasundara: No, called anima. It's a Greek word for the female aspect of nature.

Prabhupāda: Oh.

Śyāmasundara: And the male aspect is often represented by say a sun. The sun or the sun in the sky or the father, called the anima, animus, the father aspect of nature.

Prabhupāda: Yes. We also compare sun as the full pleasure knowledge. Just like we compare Kṛṣṇa with sun and māyā with darkness.

Śyāmasundara: [laughs] And māyā is a woman.

Prabhupāda: Māyā is a woman. We sometimes compare like that, darkness. Kṛṣṇa sūrya-sama māyā andhakāra [Cc Madhya 22.31]. So as soon as there is sunshine, there is no more darkness. Similarly when, as soon as there is Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no more that state of unconsciousness or dreaming. It is full conscious.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "All living or all human entities have a mixture of divine and demonic tendencies."

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is divine by nature. He is covered by nondivine, or māyā. That is our philosophy. He's in a forgotten. Just like this same example: the man is living, there is breathing, but he has no consciousness. Just like you put anaesthetic, inject, so he will cut your throat you won't protest. Similarly by the influence of māyā, we have forgotten ourself—our spiritual nature.

Śyāmasundara: Well he says that this unconscious state or this. I don't know maybe we would call it māyā? The unconscious life has also a beneficial effects in that it, it ah...

Prabhupāda: What is that beneficial?

Śyāmasundara: That it's also a reservoir of creative energy. Which if it is utilized properly can be an asset.

Prabhupāda: When we can utilize? A person when he is under the influence of anaesthetic, what he can do? He cannot do anything. He has to be brought again to consciousness platform, then he can do.

Śyāmasundara: He says that behavior is classified under different functions, for example there is sensory behavior, thinking behavior, feeling or emotional behavior...

Prabhupāda: That, that we find because in animals, the consciousness is not developed and the animals' behavior is different. Similarly, if a man is not in his Kṛṣṇa consciousness, his behaviour is different? Kṛṣṇa conscious person, he'll not act anything like killing one animal but another who is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he will think animal: "He's my food I must kill." But the same man when he is brought into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he'll refuse. Just like the Sikāri black, he was killing animals, half dead and was enjoying. The same man, by grace of Nārada, when he became a Vaiṣṇava, he was not prepared to kill even one ant. So the man is the same...

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...the consciousness is different.

Śyāmasundara: I see.

Prabhupāda: So our program is like that. For to bring man into Kṛṣṇa consciousness he will become perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Ah.

Prabhupāda: That's all.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "These different functions, people can be typified or classified as being more or less in one of these types of functions. We describe a man as a thinking man or a feeling man..."

Prabhupāda: That, that we also say...

Śyāmasundara: "...a sensory man."

Prabhupāda: ...just like brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, śūdra—in terms of different stages of consciousness.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Ah.

Prabhupāda: So the highest stage is a Vaiṣṇava.

Śyāmasundara: That, how does a Vaiṣṇava...

Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara: ..how does a Vaiṣṇava act? What are his...?

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava acts in terms of his relationship with Kṛṣṇa—God.

Śyāmasundara: So he is both. He is all these things. He is thinking...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...he is feeling.

Prabhupāda: Vaiṣṇava means fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: So his idea is that, "Everyone adapts to their environment, either as, according to one of these three things: extroversion, introversion, or a dominant function." So either...

Prabhupāda: That we also say.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: According to material condition of life, they differ, they are classified. The highest stage—the Vaiṣṇava. He is completely transcendental to the material condition and the next the brāhmaṇa. The next the kṣatriya, the next the vaiśya, the next is śūdra, and next means less than śūdra—all caṇḍālas. So they are clasified but Kṛṣṇa consciousness, because that is natural, even from the caṇḍāla stage one can be brought to the highest transcendental stage of Vaiṣṇavism.

Śyāmasundara: So would you say that the lower stages of life are, could be termed irrational, and the higher stages of life termed rational?

Prabhupāda: Yes. Righteously.

Śyāmasundara: So the consciousness becomes more and more developed...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...as we proceed higher.

Prabhupāda: Not developed. Uncovered. There are different layers of material contamination. So that has to be cleansed.

[aside:] That ah, you can come this side.

Without touching the wires. The more the layers are cleansed, his original consciousness come out. That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Śikṣāṣṭaka 1], cleansing the dirty things accumulated on the heart.

Śyāmasundara: So consciousness is not developed it's already there?

Prabhupāda: No consciousness, as soon as the soul is there, consciousness is there. That is the symptom of living condition.

Śyāmasundara: So even the consciousness of a tree...

Prabhupāda: Just like fire. There is fire, so cover it. Cover it, covering. When it is true covered, then you don't get the heat and light. But you cleanse the covering, move the covering, the fire is there.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, so even the consciousness of a tree is, is originally highly developed...

Prabhupāda: Yes. It is...

Śyāmasundara: ...but it's covered.

Prabhupāda: Yes it is simply covered. The potency is there. Just like a flower in the bud stage, the potency is there to become a rose flower. So the covering by gradually coming out, coming out and finally, very beautiful rose.

Śyāmasundara: But someone would say that that bud is developing into a flower.

Prabhupāda: A few that, that is a only terminology. Just like we say that we are changing body, they say developing body. So anyway, either you say developing or changing, the original body is not there. That you have to accept. The child's body, either you say it has developed into youth's body, and either you say that is a developed entities body. I say the child's body is gone; it is another body. So in both cases, the child's body is no longer existing that you have to agree. Either you call developed or it has gone.

Śyāmasundara: He says that, "That the personality which we manifest in our social life, in our family life, at work, etc., is called our persona, or our mask. We have to present a certain personality in our family and social and our working life, which is not a total picture."

Prabhupāda: This is, this point is nice—mask. Just like your face is covered with some mask.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: That mask is taken away, uncovered, then your real face is seen. So it is not development; it is covering...

Śyāmasundara: Ah.

Prabhupāda: You cannot say that I saw you just like a monkey's face, but when the mask is taken away, become a beautiful gentleman's face. This gentleman's face is not developed, it is already there. Simply it was covered by the mask and you take it away and you see your real face. That is our process, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Śikṣāṣṭaka 1]. The mirror is covered with dust and you cleanse it and you see your face nicely. So it is not the developing process, it is cleansing process.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that, "We show ourself to the world not as our total self..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ..."we show a picture of ourself..."

Prabhupāda: That we call ignorance, ajñāna. And that ajñāna is moved by the spiritual master. Therefore the spiritual master is worshiped, ajñāna timirāndhasya jñānāñjana śalākayā. "I was covered by the darkness of ignorance and the spiritual master has moved that darkness by giving me knowledge—jñānāñjana."

Śyāmasundara: So this persona, or this mask that someone wears and shows to their family, to their friends, is not the whole self. He says that. "The whole self.. Behind that mask there is what's called the shadow, or those repressed dispositions which a person has..."

Prabhupāda: That is...

Śyāmasundara: "...but does not show."

Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhāgavatam, apaśyatām ātma-tattvaṁ gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām [SB 2.1.2].

Those who are not seeing the position of himself as the spirit soul. They are so much attached in this family life and worldly life, national life, humanitarian life, this life, that life. Because they are all false, but because he has no knowledge of the soul, he is attached to all these things. Apaśyatām ātma-tattvam [SB 2.1.2]. Ātma-tattvam means—the science of soul. That he does not know; therefore he is attached, gṛheṣu gṛha-medhinām. These are different types of gṛha. Just like a man who is not very much advanced in nationalism, he thinks "This my house is everything." And one who has developed that like Gandhi, his family life developed into nationalism. So that is also gṛha. He is asking, I mean to say, Englishman, "Go away! It is mine." But that mahātmā, that greatness is simply expanding gṛhamedhi-ness. He's a still gṛha-medhi. We don't say like that, "Oh, you Englishman, you cannot have Kṛṣṇa consciousness." So that, therefore, those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious, they are mahātmā. Their heart has expanded up to the Supreme. These called of mahātmās, there are no mahātmās, they are gṛhamedhi, but they have been given the title, false title. Just like in Bengali it is said, the mother's loves his [her] child and the child is blind and a still, "Oh, my child's eyes are just like lotus flower."

[aside:] [Bengali]

Devotee: [indistinct] [break]

Śyāmasundara: So in other words, Jung is saying that, "We have our personality that we show to the world but we also have a personality which we don't show to the world, which is secret which is repressed, which we don't like to reveal."

Prabhupāda: That is, that is called cheating. Yes. In Sanskrit it is called bhrama, pramāda, vipralipsā, karaṇā. Vipralipsa, that is one of the tendency of the conditioned soul, that he wants to cheat others. So their confidential means cheating.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, someone may have some kind of desire which he does not like to reveal...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...to others...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...so he keeps it suppressed...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...unconscious.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So Jung says...

Prabhupāda: That is politics. That is diplomacy. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita advises:

manasā cintitam kāryam
vacasā na prakāśayet
[Nīti-śāstra, 7]

"Don't manifest your intentions by your words, which you are thinking of." These things are required because this is material world. Cāṇakya Paṇḍita has advised, śaṭhe śāṭhyamācareta. The people are cheaters, so you have to become cheater also; otherwise you cannot live. What can be done? Just like a shopkeeper, everyone knows that he is making profit, but he wants to make bargain. So a shopkeeper says, "I am taking vow. You are my friend, I am not taking a single paisa profit." Oh he believes, "Oh, you are so nice." But he should know [laughs] that he is making business, he must make profit. But he's cheated. Because he wants to be cheated. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: But sometimes...

Prabhupāda: So therefore my Guru Mahārāja used to say that, "This is a society of cheaters and the cheated." That's all.

Śyāmasundara: Sometimes...

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Śyāmasundara: "Sometimes this shadow personality", he says, "Is not even known to myself. I don't even know my..."

Prabhupāda: How you can know? You are being cheated. How can you know?

Śyāmasundara: I mean my own personality. I think I am this, but actually I am that.

Prabhupāda: That is also true, because when one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious or self conscious, he thinks this body as "I am." Yasyātma-buddhiḥ kuṇape tri-dhātuke sa eva go-kharaḥ [Bhāg. 10.84.13]. So such persons who identifies the body as the self, he is no better than the ass and the cow.

Śyāmasundara: For instance I may, I may think that I am like this, I am like that but I don't realize that I am also like this. There's some other part of me which I'm not aware of which is guiding my behavior, which I repress.

Prabhupāda: So unless one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he will think theorise that, "I am like this," "I am Indian," "I am American," "I am brāhmaṇa," "I am this," "I am that." But when he's fully conscious he knows that, "I am eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa." That is the final understanding. Otherwise he'll simply theorise, "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."

Revatīnandana: A nice example Śyāmasundara told me of one actor he knows.. he doesn't know?

Śyāmasundara: West? [?]

Revatīnandana: A nice example Śyāmasundara told me of one actor he knows.. he doesn't know? West? An actor he takes parts in cinema productions, he says that whenever he takes a part he practicaly becomes that actor. Then he takes a different part and in the process he actually forgets—who he is. Or who he thinks he is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The best actor is he who forgets his real identity and plays nicely. That is best actor. He forgets but he creates such emotion that he forgets that he's Mr. Such-and-such.

Śyāmasundara: Yes, so secretly, unknown to him there may be some... something about him which he does not know himself...

Prabhupāda: So therefore...

Śyāmasundara: ...which is guiding everything.

Prabhupāda: ...we are acting under the influence of māyā. Therefore we have forgotten our self and we are identifying, "I am this," "I am that," "I am this," "I am that."

Indian man: Vṛti. As [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Vṛti. Yes. So vṛti is—created occupation.

Śyāmasundara: So he says that, "The purpose of psychology is to come to grips with our unconscious or our shadow personality, and we must know who I am completely."

Prabhupāda: Well that is real knowledge. That is real searching-out. Just like Sanātana Gosvāmī presented himself to Lord Caitanya, "Please let me know what I am." This is the business. We require the assistance of guru to understand our real identity.

Śyāmasundara: For instance, he says that, "All male personalities in, in their shadow personality, there is a bit of the female and in all females there is a bit of the male propensities. So often we cover these up and they become repressed and we do not understand our actions."

Prabhupāda: That is our philosophy because every living entity is by nature a female—prakṛti. I was discussing this morning, parā prakṛti, living entities, but it is prakṛti. Prakṛti means—female and puruṣa means—male. So here in this material world, although we are prakṛti, we are posing ourselves as puruṣa. This male-female dress, that is immaterial. Our consciousness is now male consciousness. A female, the so-called female, here, she also wants to enjoy a male and the male also, she [he] also wants to enjoy a female. Both of them have the same propensity of enjoying. So this enjoying propensity is for male. Therefore jīvātmā is sometimes described as puruṣa. But actually the jīvātmā, the living entity is not puruṣa—he's prakṛti. Prakṛti means—predominated, and puruṣa means—predominator. So we are all predominated. And the only predominator is Kṛṣṇa. Therefore originally, by constitution we are all females. Prakṛti.

Śyāmasundara: Ah.. But in the males, male species, so-called male species there's a different temperament. There's dominance...

Prabhupāda: No, no...

Śyāmasundara: ...there's aggressiveness...

Prabhupāda: ...there is no different temperament. The female also has the same temperament. Just like in your country it is visible very, as the females claim that, "Why shall I not be treated exactly like men." And the same thing is coming in our country also.

Śyāmasundara: And the men also want to have long hair and...

Prabhupāda: So actually the real position is that every living entity is female—originally. But falsely he is imitating to become a male, enjoying. This is called māyā. He is actually he is female, but he is trying to imitate the supreme male—Kṛṣṇa. That is called māyā. This is not fact. So our, our proposition is, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that you come to the original stage—Kṛṣṇa consciousness. You are not predominator, you are predominated. Predominated means—female.

Śyāmasundara: So for instance in nature, he sees male and female characteristics. For instance a mountain, we see a mountain and we give it a male, a male characteristic because it is strong, it is dominant, it is sitting there like this. And the sea which is passive and calm and deep, we give a female aspect. He sees all these in nature.

Prabhupāda: So these are all mental concoction. It has no scientific value. You can think of something in your own idea. But ah, that is not the real identity of it.

[aside:] What is that?

Devānanda: Then when you said that all things are created out of the water of origination. From the ocean, the Kāraṇodaka, by which all these worlds are generated, and there are some that the primeval ocean and from which are the ocean...

Prabhupāda: Not from the ocean it is generated? Everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Viṣṇu. Viṣṇu is lying in that ocean, that's all. So I'm lying on this bed, and something is coming out of my breathing that does not mean it is coming from the bed. Just that.

Devānanda: What, what is the reference to the ocean of the womb.

Prabhupāda: Eh?

Devānanda: The ocean of the womb.

Prabhupāda: Well now, the womb that ah, embryo is full of water, bag. You can say that. Because it is violate and the child is floating in the water.

Śyāmasundara: So are there not certain characteristics that are particularly male and certain characteristics that are particularly female?

Prabhupāda: Male is only God. That is the characteristic. Male means enjoyer and female means enjoyed. So except God, except Kṛṣṇa, nobody is enjoyer.

Śyāmasundara: I see.

Prabhupāda: Therefore He's male.

Śyāmasundara: So it's a false, it's a false idea to think that anything that is masculine besides God.

Prabhupāda: Masculine is a different [indistinct]. Masculine gender. So that is called liṅga śarīre—symbolic. But real male is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara: And what is masculine?

Prabhupāda: Masculine, that means the symbolic representation in the material body is called masculine. Just like we recognize... Just like in Bengali it is said, when you see a cow, whether you see male or female, you just raise up the tail and you will understand. So a cow the, I mean to say vagina is covered by the tail, so if you fail to understand a calf. By, simply by raising the tail you can understand whether it is a male calf or female calf. So this science is a representation of the mentality.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, the mentality of God.

Prabhupāda: Not God—of the particular living entity.

Śyāmasundara: So to say that, for instance, the ocean is a female, has female characteristics, and the mountain has masculine characteristics...

Prabhupāda: Well, why? I do not know why the ocean has female characteristics. What does it mean?

Śyāmasundara: Well, they say, "Mother ocean." They sometimes say, "Mother ocean."

Prabhupāda: Well that. That is just like because ocean keeps within, her cover, so many animals.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Aquatic animals.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: As the female keeps the child covered within the abdomen.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: ...so in that comparison you can say, "Mother."

Śyāmasundara: Yes. And the...

Prabhupāda: But in the similarly in the mountain also there are so many minerals, so many jewels and so many nice stones. So. Simply by saying it is very strong. But generally male is strong and the female is weak. In that sense you can give a terminology.

Śyāmasundara: So he gives a definition of the self. He says that, "The self is a center or an organization within the personality which seeks to develop towards a goal of maturity and integration. The harmonious bounds of conscious and unconscious dispositions." So he says that, "Within the personality there's a center, which strives to organize the personality in such a way that everything is integrated, unconscious and unconscious [sic]. Unconscious and conscious states are all integrated, in harmony. This is the self.

Prabhupāda: What is the explanation, unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: Well...

Prabhupāda: Soul, soul at the present moment as we take it, that is... Present moment his real consciousness is covered. That we have already discussed.

Śyāmasundara: Well he doesn't see a soul, per se, he sees that a personality or a maker...

Prabhupāda: What is that personality? As soon as we come to the personality... Some entity—that we call soul. Individual entity, adding personality—that is soul.

Śyāmasundara: He would call personality, "A set of behavior which is organized."

Prabhupāda: But wherefrom the personality comes? Because you are a living entity, you have got separate identity, therefore I recognize your personality. So without individual soul, how you can think of personality? There is no question of personality unless there is that individual living entity.

Revatīnandana: Is he saying that the self is an entity that tries to coordinate the conscious and unconscious?

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Revatīnandana: Or is the self the interaction of the conscious and unconscious.

Śyāmasundara: No. He says that, "The self strives for the integration or the harmonious balance of the conscious and unconscious dispositions."

Prabhupāda: Well that, that can be explained in this way. Just like a soul who is now in sleeping stage, he can be brought into Kṛṣṇa consciousness. So that unconscious, which he says unconsciousness, sleeping stage that is integrated. So in that way you can explain. Just like Caitanya Mahāprabhu sings,

jīv jāgo jīv jāgo gauracānda bole
kota nidrā jāo māyā-piśācīra kole
[Aruṇodaya-kīrtana 2.1]

"You living entities, just get up, get up, get up! How long you shall sleep in this way under the lap, on the lap of māyā?" Yes, jīv jāgo.

bhajibo boliyā ese saṁsāra-bhitare
bhuliyā rohile tumi māyā-piśācīra bhare
[Aruṇodaya-kīrtana 2.2]

enechi auṣadhi māyā nāśibāro lāgi
hari-nāma mahā-mantra lao tumi māgi
[Aruṇodaya-kīrtana 2.4]

So this is the process, hari-nāma, gradually bringing the sleeping man to the real conscious life. That is education.

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Prabhupāda: Education.

Śyāmasundara: So actually he is defining the soul but he doesn't call it the soul.

Prabhupāda: He has no definite idea of the soul.

Śyāmasundara: No.

Prabhupāda: Poor fund of knowledge

Śyāmasundara: He calls it the center.

Prabhupāda: Yes. He is missing the point.

Śyāmasundara: He says that the self is very rarely complete or unified. Very rarely do we find someone who is unified. They... or balanced their life, integrated their life. So his idea is that, "Everyone must strive to achieve the self, that they must realize the self. This is the purpose of our lives."

Prabhupāda: Oh, that we are preaching: uttiṣṭhata jāgrata prāpya varān nibodhata [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.3.14] "Now we are human form of life, you can understand your position." That is our repeated request, repeated request, that don't miss this opportunity.

Revatīnandana: But it's interesting when he says that, "The self is rarely completely balanced or integrated..."

Śyāmasundara: Yes.

Revatīnandana: ...so we say the self is always the stable. The self is always existing, always balanced, unchanging. So he's conciding...

Prabhupāda: Now when he's in influence of māyā, he's imbalanced. He's imbalanced in ignorance. Not in knowledge. Therefore he's called māyā.

Revatīnandana: The consciousness is...

Prabhupāda: Consciousness is there...

Revatīnandana: ...imbalanced.

Prabhupāda: ...consciousness is always there. As soon as there is soul, there is consciousness. But this consciousness is colored. Just like generally water is transparent, but if you mix with color, it becomes reddish. Just like rain falling from the sky, it is distilled water, clear water, but as soon as it touches the earth it becomes muddy. Similarly the soul is clear consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but when it comes in contamination of the three modes of material nature, it becomes a different color. So at that time they fight, "I am Hindu, you are Mussulman," or "You are Christian," "I am this," "I am white," "You are black," because he has been contaminated by different colors of the material modes of nature. He is identifying with that colorful position with the body. This is ignorance. This is māyā.

Śyāmasundara: So if someone is given knowledge of their unknown self, or their shadow personality...

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...then they are able to integrate that knowledge in their conscious life...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...and able to act as a unified personality...

Prabhupāda: That man, man who is giving knowledge, he is called guru.

Śyāmasundara: I see.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So this type of knowledge has to be done, he would say, through a psychologist or a psychoanalyst.

Prabhupāda: Anyway, somebody has to guru.

Śyāmasundara: So the guru is our psychologist. [laughs]

Prabhupāda: Tad vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet [MU 1.2.12]. You must approach a guru to discover himself.

Śyāmasundara: Yes. Ah. So he says that, "Potentialities which are hitherto unexploited and which lie uncovered or lie covered in us can be brought out...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...by the knowing self and utilized."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is our process.

Śyāmasundara: "And the knowing self..."

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu is acting as guru, and He's asking everyone, jīv jāgo jīv jāgo. Therefore the conclusion should be that in order to come to the real position of our life, we must approach a guru—a person who knows what is what.

Śyāmasundara: So that person can see us for what we are, more than we can see ourselves.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like here is a physician, he knows simply by feeling this pulse beating, he can understand what is his position. And he gives medicine according to that. Our Āyurvedic system is very nice. One has to learn how this pulse is beating, then immediately diagnosis is there, medicine is...

Śyāmasundara: These psychologists like Jung, they have different processes for finding out a person's unconscious mind. For instance, interpreting his dreams, or by sometimes they put a picture, they say, "How do you look at this picture? What do you see in this picture?"

Prabhupāda: But he does not know what is the standard status of the mind. He does not know. Even the psychiatrist, he is also not in sane mind. "Physician heal thyself." Because he's, he's identifying himself with this body—so he is also insane. So therefore that treatment is not perfect.

Śyāmasundara: Oh!

Prabhupāda: How a diseased man can become a physician? Therefore the English word is, "Physician heal thyself."

Śyāmasundara: So this Jung sees a positive aspect of psychology, not just the negative aspect, whereas Freud saw that the goal of psychology was to restrict and re-channel these powerful, primitive instincts in order to mitigate troublesome symptoms. Which is a rather pessimistic or negative philosophy. Jung says that, "That man is capable of changing positively into something better..."

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: "...by the use of psychology."

Prabhupāda: Otherwise why he was making this propaganda unless there is chance of making him better? And actually we see they are becoming better.

Śyāmasundara: So actually this Kṛṣṇa consciousness is also psychology.

Prabhupāda: Certainly. That is the topmost psychology. Therefore Kṛṣṇa recommends, yoginām api sarveṣāṁ: [Bg. 6.47] "Of all the yogīs, the Kṛṣṇa devotee is the highest, topmost." Of's, of all psychologists the person who is Kṛṣṇa conscious is the best psychologists.

Indian man: Nistrai-guṇyo [Bg. 2.45]

Prabhupāda: Nistrai-guṇyo. Transcendental position. Everyone is within the modes of the material nature, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious person is above, transcendental. Sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate [Bg. 14.26].

Śyāmasundara: In one, one sense Jung is very optimistic that he sees that, "Everyone has divine and demonic potencies even within them, but that the divine potencies can be brought out..."

Prabhupāda: Ah!

Śyāmasundara: "...of everyone."

Prabhupāda: Yes. That we are trying. That we are trying. We are trying to make the demons liberated. Actually there is two positions: the divinity and the divine, eh the demon. There are two classes of men: the demon and the divine. The divine means Kṛṣṇa conscious. And just opposite, he is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is a demon. That's all.

Śyāmasundara: These, these...

Prabhupāda: Demon and divine, this is the difference. So long one is not Kṛṣṇa conscious, he is demon.

Indian man: He says that asudhā vilokana [?]

Prabhupāda: Ah.

Śyāmasundara: These tendencies, demonic tendencies, that inhabit a personality, Jung sees them often as external beings...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...that have entered into us.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like to become feverish, that is not my natural stage.

Śyāmasundara: To become what?

Prabhupāda: Feverish.

Śyāmasundara: Feverish.

Prabhupāda: It is under certain, under certain circumstances, I have become victim of malaria-fever, but that is not my natural condition. If medicine is given, the fever is gone. Then I am, that is called mukti. Mukti—liberation, means. Liberation means to get out of this feverish condition. That's all. That's roga-mukta, in Sanskrit it is called. Roga is not natural. It comes, disease comes. So not only disease... Therefore Bhagavad-gītā says, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9], that all these four things are diseased, externally.

Otherwise the living entity has no birth, no death, no disease, no oldness. Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ [Bg. 2.20].

How there can be oldest? These are externalities. As... But the people are so ignorant that they don't know how to drive away these external feverish conditions. They think it is natural, "Let me suffer." That is their ignorance.

Śyāmasundara: One of Jung's favorite techniques for improving a person's personality was to force that person to bring up the demonic force in himself and treat it as another person. If the demon within me is not really me, it's another personality which causes...

Prabhupāda: That is not very important, how one becomes. How one affected by some disease. But when the disease is there, the treatment must be there. That is natural. Instead of tracing out the history, what is the use? That the disease is there, make treatment and be cured, that's all.

Śyāmasundara: But this, this demon that haunts me, that is another personality besides my real personality.

Prabhupāda: That is not a... Personality, I am. Just like delirium, the same personality but he's talking nonsense in delirium. So if you remove the delirium condition then he becomes again the original person. Delirium is not person.

Śyāmasundara: Oh, I see.

Indian man: [indistinct] the guru, the person is in the mukti [Bengali] person [Bengali]

Prabhupāda: Ah. Person is the same, thank-you.

Śyāmasundara: So when we say that a person is ghostly haunted...

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: ...does that mean there is another personality which is inhabiting his...

Prabhupāda: Influencing.

Śyāmasundara: Influencing.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara: So that that...

Prabhupāda: Just like a man is hypnotized. Just like another man is hypnotizing him.

Śyāmasundara: Oh. So that other personality, that foreign personality, can be... [end]