Participants:
PrabhupādaŚyāmasundaraDevoteeIndian man
Prabhupāda: [indistinct] and as soon as they get opportunity to become fat by taking others' blood. Unless you feel in your heart these things cannot be.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that only the workers are entitled to the surplus value of the product but the nature [indistinct].
Prabhupāda: But as soon as the workers get some profit. They may not no longer work, they become a capatalist. He teaches other workers.
Śyāmasundara: Ah.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Just like the some mill owner who has [indistinct]. He has a worker in a mill, who was working, and as soon as he gets some money he sits down as the proprietor of the mill and other, he takes advantage of working others. Because [indistinct]
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: There are many instances. Just like in your country, Ford he was some, what is? Some bogus-mechanic [?]. But he got the opportunity to become capitalist. And there are so many in our country also they write their adventures that I was a police [?] [laughs] I was out getting money, I was starving, and now I have become first-class.
Śyāmasundara: [laughter] Jayom [?] Prasad.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Jayom [?] Prasad
Prabhupāda: Yes. So they take credit. I recall one book in Mathurā one Mr. Nadan, he was begging his brothers. Alright he became a very businessman, so he wrote his history, that I was begging now I am sitting [break] at this. That's all. So, this theory that my propensity is there, that as soon as I get the opportunity I suck the blood of others and become fat. So unless he changes mentality, there is no question of changing capitalist or communist or this or that. It is all useless.
Śyāmasundara: So shall we stop for today or...,
Devotee: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ...continue tomorrow? We still have more of Marx, tomorrow.
Devotee: We can do it tomorrow.
Śyāmasundara: We'll also do Lenin tomorrow.
[break]
Śyāmasundara: So, so today we continue with Marx.
Prabhupāda: Hm. That Marx? Not yet finished?
Śyāmasundara: No.
Prabhupāda: Oh... Go on.
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "Since capital is unnecessary for production, that the capitalist's should be overthrown violently and the workers of the world should unite and overthrow the capitalists."
Prabhupāda: But the difficulty is—that we have already discussed yesterday. That, today I am laborer, tomorrow I am capitalist. Because my tendency is, as soon as I get some money, I shall become master. That is the tendency. That we have already discussed. So today one man is very poor man, so he is in favor of his brothers who are poor, working, but as soon as he gets a little money—immediately he becomes the capitalist. Then he is imitating the same way as the capitalist.
Śyāmasundara: Suppose there is a social system where everyone gets the same amount, no one gets excess.
Prabhupāda: That is simply theory, that is not possible.
Śyāmasundara: But that's what happens in Russia. The managers, they don't get much more than the workers. So that everyone only can have a certain income. Just like Himavatī's relatives, they sent her..., they sent the relatives in Russia some gifts for Christmas. The relatives sold the gifts and used the money to buy wood to, to add a room to their house. And because of that they were greatly punished, severely punished by the state. That they should have given that money to others, they should distributed it equally. That was the state's theory because anything that I use for my own benefit is wrong.
Prabhupāda: So my tendency is to—everything as my own, but by the taking of the state I am forced to avoid it. So how long this will go on? By force how you can change one's mind? It is not possible. Therefore we say these things are only nonsense proposition. It will never happen because anyone who is in this material world, he has the prime tendency that I shall become the Lord. Lābha, pūjā, pratiṣṭhā. The material world means everyone is seeking after some profit.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Everyone is seeking after some adoration, and everyone is seeking, some. I mean to say, position. This is the material world. So if everyone seeks profit, adoration and position, so how you can make equal by force?
Śyāmasundara: So the communists have played upon this tendency and so the worker who produces more, he gets glorified by the state. He produces more units at his factory than the others, then he gets a small bonus.
Prabhupāda: Why he should get bonus?
Śyāmasundara: In order to..., it's incentive. It's called, "Incentive bonus."
Prabhupāda: That means that his tendency is to lord it over, and that he is being bribed. He wants some profit, "All right, I give you some bonus." This Russian communist idea is very good provided the citizens do not want any profit—but that is not possible. Everyone wants profit. So how by law, by force, you can take it? That is not possible. The same proposition: that in the winter season the bugs cannot get blood, cannot come out due to the severe cold so they become dried up. Their skin practically dries, from the..., all dries out completely. There is no blood. That is [indistinct]. But as soon as the bug gets opportunity, in summer season, if he can come out, immediately he bites somebody and sucks all the blood.
Śyāmasundara: So this is an example of people in Russia who are forced by the state not to take profit.
Prabhupāda: Ah, but as soon as there will be opportunity, they will take it. Because that is the instinct.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: As soon as he got some gifts, he thought it is mine...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ..and he sold it and he utilized it for his purpose.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. So he...
Prabhupāda: So this is the psychological fact that everyone is trying to get some profit. By force you can make him not to take profit, but that is not possible. As soon as there is profit then forcing them.
Śyāmasundara: So Karl Marx made a manifesto called, "Communist Manifesto" which is a list of ten points for social reform. Should we read them, the ten?
Prabhupāda: No end [?], please.
Śyāmasundara: The first one is the abolition of property and land and application of all rent from land to public purposes. In other words abolition of private property, all property becomes public. The second point is a heavy income tax, or known progressive income tax. So if you make more, you have to pay more. The abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Prabhupāda: This, this, this ah thing is not only in Russia, this is going on in other countries.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: So, people have been taught not to keep accounts. All these big, big business men they don't keep accounts, so there is no question of income tax. Suppose if I want to purchase from you something. No cash memo, no account. I give you money, cash, I take goods, I sell it, no account, then I cash from my bank. That's all. But provided I have my right books, then these things will be applicable—income tax. Just like in our Indian system, the small broker, he has no book; nothing of the sort. He is purchasing one bag or two bags of rice, he is selling, that's all. He do not keep account. So as soon as... The whole tendency is—that I want profit. If the government is pressing somewhere, they're only property of Harijans [?], I will get my profit but I will not show government how much profit I am making. He may propose all these nice things according to his philosophy but he cannot change the mind of the people. Therefore all these proposal will be futile. Simply waste of time, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that the mind of people can be changed because the conditions...
Prabhupāda: But not in that way, by force—by force. That is not possible. You cannot change the mind even of a child by force, and what to speak of elderly man—educated man. Is it not so? Mind can be changed by our process: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Śikṣāṣṭaka 1]. Otherwise it is not. These things will remain theories and create concrete [?], even in the ordinary position. They are utopian—it is not possible. This misconception of life will be the first installment of our profit by chanting, byŚyāmasundara: He also wants to abolish all inheritance rights, all rights of inheritance.
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense proposal, because everyone's tendency is to give money to his children. That is the, that is the law everywhere. I have got some affection for my children. I want to give something to my children. So how you can stop this hereditary right. They are proposing all impractical.
Śyāmasundara: They, they are practicing this in Russia. There is no inheritance. There is no...
Prabhupāda: That's only patter [?], we have seen Russia is not happy. Russia is not happy and they are simply waiting for another opportunity, another revolution. You have seen this boy sent here, he is not happy. Similarly you can study. Just like when there is rice boiling you take one grain of rice and press it in your finger. If it is soft, then you can understand the whole rice is boiled.
Śyāmasundara: [indistinct] damaged. [?]
Prabhupāda: Some. So we can understand the position of Russia from the sample—that boy.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: We haven't got to study more. And we could get some idea by talking with that professor that, how much foolish he is. He says that, "After death everything is finished." And he is passing on as a very, a big professor, Indian Department, Indology or something else. So, if his knowledge is like that, if the sample of the citizens is like that boy, then what is their position? They may theorize so many things. But so far as we are concerned, foreigners, we could not get even food to our satisfaction. There is no sufficient vegetables, no fruits, milk was of course available, no rice. That Madrasi gentleman, if he would not have contributed some dāl and rice and the..., then practically we would have starved.
Śyāmasundara: The rice from Korea was like BB's, small pellets. We bought some rice.
Prabhupāda: Where?
Śyāmasundara: It was from North Korea, the rice we bought in Moscow. It was so tough.
Prabhupāda: Life is very difficult there. You can simply eat meat, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: And liquor.
Prabhupāda: Liquor, that's all. And what they are drinking on the road? You did not see?
Śyāmasundara: I think it was some kind of wine, or...
Prabhupāda: Maybe.
Śyāmasundara: ...liquor.
Prabhupāda: But these things were almost in every road. People were drinking [indistinct], students and drinking.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, I remember, yes, it was, what is known as soft drinks..., soft drinks.
Prabhupāda: That's another thing, so, that shopping is so much troublesome. Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Telephone.
Prabhupāda: Who is calling?
Śyāmasundara: It's Indira [?]
Prabhupāda: Some humbug, has said that...
Śyāmasundara: Most of these people were descendents of warrior class—kṣatriya class, so that defines them I think to be usually...
Prabhupāda: [laughs] No, the warrior class are not like that, kṣatriyas. They, not that they are addicted. These are caṇḍālas. They are called caṇḍālas.
Śyāmasundara: Dog-eater.
Prabhupāda: Caṇḍālas—the dog eaters, the hog-eaters. In India they are sweeper class. Mlecchas. They are demoniac by the nature. She comes from that family. Now you get me fat salary and I''ll begin the fight. [?] Mleccha.
Śyāmasundara: Anyway, all property, all money, capital, communications, transport everything should be brought into central, centralize, centralized in the hands of the state.
Prabhupāda: Hm. Yes. So, what profit will be? As soon as it is centralized, the member in the central, they will exploit. Just like Krushchev was doing, and he was driven. So, so our diagnosis is that tendency is there. Unless you reform that tendency, these things will be bogus. Now Russia, just according to Marx theory, they are doing that, but if you say [?] [indistinct] he will utilize it.
Śyāmasundara: So our idea is...
Prabhupāda: How you shall stop this mentality? What is that program?
Śyāmasundara: Well their program is first you change the social conditions then the mentality will change.
Prabhupāda: No.Impossible. It will simply react and there will be another revolution.
Śyāmasundara: So first you have to change the mentality...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: ..and then the social structure will change.
Prabhupāda: Unless I am trained up to think that I do not possess anything, everything belongs to the state... But it is very difficult to change. Simply nonsense.
Śyāmasundara: But they think like that.
Prabhupāda: They think but they think in utopian, that is another thing. But, so...
Śyāmasundara: They're all... Yes, this as an example. There was one woman, who was in charge of the, a maid in that hotel.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Although she must have known from childhood that that hotel belongs to the state, the foodstuff belongs to the state, everything belongs to the state. Still she had proprietorship, false proprietorship over her kitchen—that kitchen. She would not allow us into that kitchen.
Prabhupāda: So just see.
Śyāmasundara: Even though it was not hers—we, we had every right to use it as much as her, she would not allow it.
Prabhupāda: Just see.
Śyāmasundara: She had the..
Prabhupāda: In Russia. Yes. In the hotel. And there were some quarrels.
Śyāmasundara: Quarrels. She wanted the rights to that stove. [laughs]
Prabhupāda: So how you can change it? Simply theorizing will not serve you.
Devotee: In Russia when they, when they find someone who is deviating like that they send them to Siberia. So their process of checking them is to punish them.
Prabhupāda: Punish.
Devotee: Send them away.
Prabhupāda: But everything is going on simply on threatening. You see there is no many heart to heart cooperation. Therefore everyone we saw, they were morose.
Śyāmasundara: Slogans. They simply speak slogans. Propaganda.
Prabhupāda: There is no cooperation. In this way, finally the people will non-cooperate and there will be revolution. Just like Gandhi's non-cooperation. That stage will come. Nobody will cooperate with them. So these are foolish theories. It has not practical value.
Śyāmasundara: So their idea about... Is that, "All events are seen as physical reactions aimed at satisfying economic and material needs of mankind. In other words everything that happens historically is seen as a result of economic and material needs required."
Prabhupāda: That, that, that is a fact. I have already explained. Because I want to make profit, you want to make profit. So as soon as there will be check in my profit-making or your profit-making, then we shall fight.
Śyāmasundara: Ah. So...
Prabhupāda: The reason is that I want to make profit, you want to make profit, nobody is prepared to sacrifice profit. So as soon as our interests clash there is fight. That's all.
Śyāmasundara: So the sad truth is that the whole world is revolving on the principle of economic desire.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Economic desire. Profit, that is stated in the śāstras [Cc Madhya 19.159], lābha, pūjā, pratiṣṭhā. Lābha means profit. Pūjā means... Why, why I want profit? Because if I have got money, then people will adore me. Say I was God. "You are everything." Give me something [?]. Just, just like [laughs] the beggars, they don't have the blessing, you become king, you will be so on and so on and so on, you are so great. So in this way he thinks, "Oh I am great. I'm unchecked. I'm all right." He, he becomes immediately sophisticated, "Oh I am so great. All right, take it."... This is there. He flatters.
Śyāmasundara: He says that man's nature is the result of historical forces. Therefore ideas change according to material conditions. In other words...
Prabhupāda: These ideas cannot change, these basic ideas, that I want some profit, I want some adoration and I want some position. This will never change. These rascals, they do not know the basic principles of human psychology.
Śyāmasundara: Their philosophy is gross materialism. They believe everything in science that matters.
Prabhupāda: Superficial, no depth of knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: So they even thought that he is a materialist in fact of his clothing, matter thinks. It was his idea that matter changes through history according to the economic development, economic changes.
Prabhupāda: We, we take our knowledge from authority. Just like this lābha, pūjā, pratiṣṭhā. We take from authority. So this is the science. Everyone is after some profit, some adoration and some position. Therefore these things have been forbidden for persons who are advanced in this Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Because if you have got all these material desires, then you cannot become Kṛṣṇa conscious. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. 1.1.11]. These are called anyābhilās—the desiring something for material profit. So, bhakti is anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam, one must be completely free from all these desires, material desires.
Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁjñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam [Cc Madhya 19.167], without any aspiration for resultant action of knowledge and karma. The knowledge means, just like the jñānīs, they are cultivating knowledge, but their aim is how to become one with God. That is their aim. That means here he prays to get a position to his satisfaction, now he wants to get the position of God. Just say I am, I am superficially find that he is a sannyāsī, he does not possess anything. Eh? But by his sacrificing all possession in this world he wants to take possession of the Supreme Lord. He has told you that I have given up anything..., everything but I want to rob you of your riches [?]. So this is phalgu vairāgya. Phalgu vairāgya.
Śyāmasundara: He has another slogan that, "Human essence has no true reality." In other words...
Prabhupāda: Because does not know what is reality. He is a fool.
Śyāmasundara: Well he says that man's reality or man's nature changes through history according to the material conditions.
Prabhupāda: Well that is the way of how everything is changing. This tree is changing daily, your body is changing, that is not a very high philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that if you mold...
Prabhupāda: Jagat. Jagat means changing. Jagat. Viparivartate jagad [Bg. 9.10], everything is changing. Just like wind, time and tide.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So that is not a very unique proposal. It is the nature's way, it is going on.
Śyāmasundara: But it is..
Prabhupāda: And therefore I say this theory, this Marx theory—it is also changeable.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It will not stay.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Does, does this mean that man's nature, there is no fundamental nature that a man's reality is...
Prabhupāda: Yes, that is spiritual nature.
Śyāmasundara: Oh.
Prabhupāda: That is spiritual nature. We are teaching people to come to that standard—spiritual—which will never change. Just like we are trying to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is not non-changing. We are serving Kṛṣṇa and when we go to Vaikuntha, we serve Kṛṣṇa. Therefore it is called nitya. Nitya means eternal. Nitya-yukta upāsate. Bhagavad-gītā [Bg 9.14], eternally engaged in the service of the Lord. Satataṁ kīrtayanto mām. Always glorifying, they are mahātmās. They are great souls.Not like Māyāvādī. Māyāvādī philosophers, they will say that, "Let me serve Kṛṣṇa now. As soon as I become liberated, I become God... I become God." This is another bluff. Just like I am serving you to take your favor and as soon as I get opportunity I ride upon you. You see? Now, Śyāmasundara, I thank-you, but now I have become irreligous [?]. This is Māyāvāda theory.
Śyāmasundara: They want to become...
Prabhupāda: One. One with God. That means enjoy life after. Here, he could not enjoy. There were so many impediments. Eh? Therefore brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. This is all mithyā. So I become one with Brahman. This is jñānī. And karma means that I work hard, I get some result, and I enjoy. Karma-phala. But bhakti means that one should be completely free from all these desires. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyaṁjñāna-karmādy anāvṛtam [Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11]. One should not be covered with the results of jñāna and karma. Then what is bhakti? Ānukūlyena kṛṣṇānuṣīlanam [Cc Madhya 19.167]. Simply to cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness—in favor of Kṛṣṇa. Not in my favor. So long you think anything in your favor, that is not bhakti. So where is this mentality? You give up Kṛṣṇa, you replace Kṛṣṇa with the state, that how you can get your mentality, nothing is in my favor, everythings is in favor of the state.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: It is impossible, but these rascals try.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They simply they are forced. Just like Stalin. He, he got the position and as soon as he found somebody that he is not in his favor, then immediately—cut his throat. The same, the disease is there, that I want everything in my favor and I cover it by some illusion. So how it will be successful?
Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that human, human nature has no reality of it's own, that it is a product of the material environment so that if you put a man in a factory...
Prabhupāda: So if you have no reality, why you are proposing something nonsense as real—if there is no reality?
Śyāmasundara: Well their idea is that if you put a man in a factory and you get him to identify with the state, the production, the scientific achievements, say...
Prabhupāda: That cannot be—that is our philosophy. [coughs] Because he has got the basic disease. He is saying that I am working so hard, but this profit is not coming to me, he will be immediately slackened. Just like there is a proverb, "Proprietorship turns sand into gold." But as soon there is lacking of the sense that I am not proprietor—the gold becomes sand.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That is position of Russia.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. [break]
Prabhupāda: That is position of Russia.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They are not happy, they are not rich, in comparison to other European countries. Of course, no European country is as good, or as rich as America, that's a fact. That I have practically seen. But a still in Russia, they are poorer than other countries.
Śyāmasundara: One of their methods is to constantly whip the people with the idea that there may be war at any moment so the people are always thinking, "Oh, we must protect our country, we must protect our country," so they work.
Prabhupāda: But when they lose interest in the country on the basis of this farsical idea, that I cannot make any profit. I have no proprietorship, then what interest I have got in this country?
Śyāmasundara: So only the negative, the negative stress forces them to work.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: Your home may be in danger, your family may be lost—if you don't work.
Prabhupāda: But if I work, what do I get? I work or not work, I get the same thing. Where is my incentive? Marshall's theory is that, "Economic development is based on family affection."
Śyāmasundara: Is it?
Prabhupāda: Yes. So if I cannot give good food, good dress to my family... The same thing, I am working so hard, another man is working as laborer, I am scientist so my wife and children with the same dress and he is this, so I am losing my interest. That is the position over there [?]. These are all impractical.
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "Industrial and scientific work is the highest point of activity."
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but the... Unless the scientist and the industrialist get sufficient profit for himself, he will be reluctant to work for state.
Śyāmasundara: Their goal is the production of material goods for the enhancement of human well-being.
Prabhupāda: The human well-being means if you don't agree to me, I cut your throat, that's all. This is human well-being. I am thinking in my way: human well-being. Just like Stalin, he was thinking in his own way, human well-being, but anyone who disagrees with him, cut him. This is human well-being? I don't think.
Śyāmasundara: So low...
Prabhupāda: Lenin also did like that.
Śyāmasundara: Well-being is relative.
Prabhupāda: Just like he killed all the royal family. So this killing, they will say it is well-being of the human race. Well if it is not well-being for the royal family. But they will theorized, it is well-being.
Śyāmasundara: So they say the well-being for the most people. If something has to be sacrificed for that...
Prabhupāda: Ah.
Śyāmasundara: ..then it is all right.
Prabhupāda: So that everyone thinks. Everyone says, but these are all impractical propositions. And so far Russia is concerned, we have seen practically, these things are not being applied nicely. Like..., at least we have seen, that in Moscow, all big, big buildings, they are not recent buildings. They are old, damaged buildings, when there was monarchy. So that means their economic condition is not so sound. Their old buildings are not very nicely renovated.
Śyāmasundara: Hm.
Prabhupāda: So what is that building we were going to inside, getting out from the National Hotel? There was a big building, some historical building?
Śyāmasundara: Kremlin?
Prabhupāda: Library or something?
Śyāmasundara: Lenin's... Oh, the one with the round turret?
Prabhupāda: No, no, just like our hotel was there, and go this way then after a few steps there was big building.
Śyāmasundara: Oh, the State Planning?
Prabhupāda: Maybe.
Śyāmasundara: State Planning Commision.
Prabhupāda: That is a very old building...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ..that is not recent building. So similarly all the buildings they worn away [?]...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ..they are not recent buildings.
Śyāmasundara: The, the only fairly recent building was the university. It has a big, big, big, big building.
Prabhupāda: Hah, hah, that may be, that was not very...
Śyāmasundara: Not very big.
Prabhupāda: Hah it was new line [?] very...
Śyāmasundara: Very..
Prabhupāda: ..not very huge. That is not very extraordinary.
Śyāmasundara: Not compared to New York City.
Prabhupāda: No, nothing.
Śyāmasundara: Whereas their idea is that well-being is measured by how many telephones there are, how many refrigerators, how many...
Prabhupāda: That they haven't got. There..., there is no sufficient motor car. He knows when we asked Professor Kotovsky for call taxi. He said, "Oh it is Moscow, it is very, difficult." Do you remember that?
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Do you remember? He gave us direction: "If you kindly go in this way, in this way..."
Śyāmasundara: Take the bus.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Not, not if you can reach sooner, as you are waiting for taxi. Do you remember?
Śyāmasundara: Yes, I remember.
Prabhupāda: And we did it. We walked too. He gave us direction, "You go in this way, this way, then you will go to your hotel sooner than we wait for a taxi." So, either there is no sufficient taxi, taxi company, they do not get profit, or there is no sufficient demand. People have no sufficient income. That is the... In your country as soon as you want a taxi, you get it. Simply call, "I want a taxi." The same thing here, immediately taxi, you can go. In Boston I was calling, "Simply send taxi." I..., You have seen? You know better than me, that there is telephone...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ..in the taxi.
Śyāmasundara: In the taxi...
Prabhupāda: Yes. And they are directing, "Can you go this side, can you go this side?" So as soon as he finds that where he is, from that place the taxi demand is nearer; he says, "Yes, I can go." So immediately his number is located and he'll immediately inform that taxi stand. This is the system. So, where is that system? It is also European country and they are so proud of their philosophy and people are not getting their goods, nicely. I mean there are lines, big lines for purchasing things and for foreigners you are asked, "Where, where is your citizenship." There is fright, which foreigner is here. They do not regard, that boy related that he cannot go out. And he found some telex by copying with us [?], that he wanted you that he was so much anxious for Kṛṣṇa's chanting. So they are not happy, that's a fact.
Śyāmasundara: Their idea is that religion is an illusion and it must be condemned.
Prabhupāda: That's right, but his theory, he has become illusion now. Religion, that is illusion that is to be considered as if we do not take. But his philosophy is becoming illusion. That's a fact.
Śyāmasundara: In other words it's not being practiced.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's a fact. Within how many years? The revolution was in 1917.
Śyāmasundara: About a hundred years.
Prabhupāda: No hundred.
Śyāmasundara: Fifty years.
Prabhupāda: For fifty years. So within fifty years his philosophy is determined vaguely [?]. And in India, we do not know when religion began. You say Brahmā. So Brahmā's twelve hours... Twelve hours duration of Satya-yuga. So religion, our this Vedic religion is there since so many long years and instead of being devastated by the foreigners for the last two thousand years. A still the religion, the system of religion, is running. It is not illusion, at least for India.
Śyāmasundara: I'll read his famous statement about religion. He says, "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of the heartless world, just as it is the spirit of the spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people."
Prabhupāda: That's right, but the, he does not know what is religion. His definition source. Why he accepts a Vedic way? Nobody knows what is religion. Our Vedic version is—religion is the code given by God. So if God is fact then His law is also fact, it is not delusion. Just like Kṛṣṇa giving religion. This is Vedic, what? Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇaṁ [Bg. 18.66], to surrender unto God. This is religion.
[break]
Śyāmasundara: His idea is that everything is produced from economic struggle. So that religion is like a police force, and it is invented by the bourgeois or the capitalist as a technique to dissuade the masses from revolting by promising them a better existence, or a happier existence after death so that they can be...
Prabhupāda: But then that can be applied to his proposal also.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: He has created a philosophy which is being enforced by killing, by threatening.
Śyāmasundara: And he promises them a better future.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Śyāmasundara: In the future it will be better.
Prabhupāda: So, he is doing that service more than the evidence.
Śyāmasundara: Yes, exactly. So his is a religion also.
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: His, his philosophy is like a religion.
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Śyāmasundara: It's a very [indistinct] if he condemns it.
Prabhupāda: Religion means [indistinct] as I've several times explained, this he cannot give up—that is religion.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He thinks everything can be changed, that nothing is permanent.
Prabhupāda: Therefore he has no religion. Our, our proposition, religion means dharma, Kṛṣṇa's which you cannot give up, sanātana [?] Just like I am standing on this floor. It is not possible to stand without this floor. You see? I cannot say that I can stand without floor.
Śyāmasundara: In the air itself.
Prabhupāda: No, as it is not possible. Similarly, one cannot give up his religion. And what is that religion? That religion is service. If that is religion, then he wants to give service to the humanity by his proposition, and that is his religion. Why he is giving this philosophy, writing his books? He wants to give some service to the humanity. That is the idea. So everyone is trying to give some service. The father is trying to give some service the family, the statesman is trying to give some service to the country. Honestly. So he is also trying to give some service to the whole humanity. So this service spirit is always there...
[break] ...is always there. Either you become a Karl Marx, or you become Stalin, or you become Gandhi, or you become whatever you may be, the service spirit is there. Or in family also, the father wants to give service. In state also, the prime minister wants to give some service. So this service spirit will be... Now, we are giving service to so many things, and we are becoming confused and [indistinct].
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says that, "You give up all other service, give Me service, I will love that." You cannot remain without giving service. That's a fact. Either you like to give service to your country or to your family or even you have to give service to a dog. So that you cannot give [?]. Therefore the service is not... You may be a Hindu, you may be a Muslim, you may be anything but that service spirit is there. And that service spirit is religion.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But actually by rendering service to so many objectives, we are frustrated.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: Therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁśaraṇam [Bg. 18.66], you give service to Me and you'll be happy."
Śyāmasundara: So many , so..., for instance the Communists and even to a certain extent the capitalists. They believe that service for the production of goods is the only real service. So they condemn us because we are not adding anything to the production. We are not working, we are not building factories. So they condemn us.
Prabhupāda: Then how they can condemn? We are giving service to the humanity for better knowledge. Then high-court judge, he is not producing any grain in the field, so he is not giving any service? He is sitting on the chair and drawing five thousand, ten thousand dollars. You can say, "Oh, he is not giving any service, he is simply sitting in the chair."
Śyāmasundara: Well, in one way he is because he is enforcing the law that helps the...
Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, he personally, if you simply see it that this man comes in the office and sits down in the chair for three hours and he draws salary six thousand.
Śyāmasundara: He protects my property though.
Prabhupāda: That, that means, that means that not that everyone has to work in the factory to produce.
Śyāmasundara: But he protects what I produce.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. That means brain is required how to give protection. So that is also service.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: But his theory is unless you give your manual labor in the factory or in the field...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ..you are not giving service. He'd give simply, I mean to say, give credit to the coolies and workers...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: ..that's all. But because his whole basic principle is coolie, coolie philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: [laughs] Peasants, they call them.
Prabhupāda: That's right.
Indian man: And I still I want to know [indistinct]...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Indian man: One Marwari first of all thought that his manager was getting two thousand rupees and doing nothing. So he said, "I will do all of the manager's," and he was a good research scientist, engineer like that. So he saved the two thousand rupees a month. After a couple of months that [indistinct] was out of work...
Prabhupāda: Yes.
Indian man: ..and that nobody could set right. And that man was called [indistinct]. Then he told that Marwari that you were giving me three thousand [indistinct] and sitting on the chair [indistinct].... because he was a materilist.
Prabhupāda: There is a story that one king, he had ministers, a prime minister. So other salaried worker's complained, "Sir, we are actually working. This minister is giving nothing, you are giving him so much salary and we are so poor living. So, "Oh, all right." So he called the minister, and brought one elephant. He all asked the salaried worker's, "Please immediately take this elephant and let me know what is the weight. Take this, weigh it." So they went to... All market, they went to find out a scale, how to weigh this. Where is the scale for weighing an elephant? Eh? So they could not do anything. They came back. "What happened?" "Sir, we could not get such a scale." "Oh, you could not weigh? All right. Minister, will you kindly weigh this elephant?" "Yes, sir." "All right, take it." So say within six minutes he said, "Well it is twenty mounds," and like that. All surprised. You see? So they were standing. They were surprised. "How is that? Within some minutes he came back and he said the exact weight." So king asked that, "How did you weigh? Did you get some very big scale?" "No sir. It is not possible to weigh the elephant in the scale. Very difficult." "Then how did you weigh?" "Yes, I took it in a boat. I got it on the boat. I saw the water mark and I marked it and then after getting down the elephant, I put weight on it. So when it came to that water mark, I understood." So the king said, "Now you see the difference?" They said, "Yes." [indistinct] Buddhir yasya bālaṁ tasya nirbuddhes tu kuto bālam [Hitopadeśa]: "One who has got intelligence, he has got strength, and one who has got no intelligence, rascal fool, what strength there is?" These people are like that, rascal fools. We don't take advice from them. We take advice from Kṛṣṇa or His representative.
Śyāmasundara: So, so religion is not just a police force for keeping people in illusion.
Prabhupāda: He does not know what is religion. He does not know and he is trying to define religion. He does not know. I have defined already religion. Religion is the service spirit. That is religion. Now, real religion is the service... Everyone is engaged in giving service, but he does not know where his service will be successful. That he does not. Therefore Kṛṣṇa gives us indication that, "You serve Me and your service spirit will be successful." That is religion.
Indian man: Sir, we see that Dr. Stanley Johnson... He is my friend. He said he was traveling in Moscow. One lady got in the train and she told him, "You look religious. You must very rich."
Śyāmasundara: Very rich?
Indian man: Huh. "Sir, you look religious, so you must be very rich." He said, "Why? Why do I look rich?" Because they have the idea that only rich men can think of religion.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. That's their whole idea.
Prabhupāda: That means foolish, all set of foolish rascals, that's all.
Śyāmasundara: They think that religous prior to...
Prabhupāda: From his talking we can understand. He is the leader. So he is a big foolish man and his followers must be all fools.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: That's all.
Śyāmasundara: He said that, that, "Religion is made, made up by the capitalists to keep the..."
Prabhupāda: That means he does not know religion, what is religion and he wants to define religion. What a foolish man he is. He does not know what is the meaning of religion. Religion means—which you cannot change. That is religion. Dharmaṁ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19].
[aside:] Just keep it for now. Yes. [indistinct]
There is a... For even, even up to this day, because India is standing on religion, although it's tooth is broken [?] and it is all broken, a still, all over the world—I have traveled all and they're, they're adoring India.
Śyāmasundara: But their, their explanation will be that because everyone is so poor in India that they rely on religion for condolence.
Prabhupāda: But a still, people come from other countries to learn religion here. And one, one Chinese writer, I have seen his book. He plainly writes that, "If you want to study religion—it is India."
Śyāmasundara: But more people go from India to America to learn science.
Prabhupāda: No, no. No. That is another thing, material science. Material science. But when people come from West to India, they do not come here to learn material science. They come here to understand what is God, these things.
Indian man: Not only that, Sir. Gandhi told me the same thing. He said when Kanjulatem [?] went to London, he was told that, "Your religion is ancient. Why did you not come to teach us?" He said, "Whom to teach? Your fathers and grandfathers were jumping from trees."
Prabhupāda: That's it. Darwin's theory.
Indian man: He said, "Whom to come and teach? You were not there."
Prabhupāda: [laughs] Very good answer. Yes, Darwin says that all monkeys. "So you are monkey. How to teach you?" A very good answer, yes.
Śyāmasundara: So he says that, "God does not create man," he says, "Man creates God."
Prabhupāda: That is another nonsense. He is a nonsense rascal. That is, that is being proved by his talks. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. You cannot understand a rascal fool unless he talks. Now he is talking. And sooner I did not know that he is so fool, but I can understand now he is a great fool. This is, this is the test. Tāvac ca śobhate mūrkho yāvat kiñcin na bhāṣate. Mūrkha, you can dress, a mūrkha can dress himself very nicely, like gentleman sitting amongst the gentlemen. But a learned man and a fool will be understood as soon as he speaks. As soon as talks like a foolish man then one can understand—he is a rascal. And as soon as one speaks great subject matter, then one can understand—he is learned. So by his talking, now we can understand he is a great fool.
Śyāmasundara: So there..., his follower was Nikolai Lenin. Mostly, mostly he reinforced all of Marx's ideas but he added a few touches of his own. One is that revolution is fundamental, that history...
Prabhupāda: There were so many revolutions. It is not that they have made revolution. There were other revolutions, especially in Europe, the French Revolution.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. He...
Prabhupāda: There, so many revolutions.
Śyāmasundara: He studied the revolutions and he said that, "History moves in leaps and progresses toward the Communist leap." So he wants to make a leap into the dictatorship of the proletariat, and this he calls the final stage of development of history.
Prabhupāda: No. We can say, and they may note it also, that after this, the Bolshevik Revolution, there will be many other revolutions, many other revolutions. Because so long people will live on the mental plane there will be only revolution. That's all. Our proposition is, "Give up this mental concoction. Come to the right point. And that is spiritual platform." If one comes to that spiritual platform, that is... Just like Dhruva Mahārāja said, svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi varaṁ na yāce: [Hbs. 7.28] "No more revolution. I am completely satisfied because I have now seen." So unless one comes to God, [break] the revolution will go on. Rather, this is final revolution. We don't say final revolution, but... Then we don't expect that Kṛṣṇa consciousness will be taken by everyone. But within this material world the revolution will repeat unless one comes to God conscious.
Śyāmasundara: The Hare Kṛṣṇa revolution. [laughs] He said that...
Prabhupāda: Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. [Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.3] That is the Vedic injunction, that people are searching after knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge. So when one understands the Absolute Truth—then he understands everything. Yasmin vijñāte sarvam evaṁ vijñātaṁ bhavanti. And Bhāgavata [7.5.31] says, na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum: "They are trying to approach the objective, but they do not know the objective is Viṣṇu." Durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ: "They are simply trying to adjust by so many revolutions, these material things." But he has no knowledge that he is spiritual being. Unless he goes back to the spiritual world and associates with the supreme spirit, God, there is no question of happiness. Exactly, if you have taken a fish from the water, there is no question of happiness of this fish. Fish, unless it is again thrown into the water. So we have come... We are part and parcel of the supreme spirit. We have come from the spiritual world so with the mentality for enjoying this material world. So unless we divert, reverse ourself to that spiritual conclusion, we understand our spiritual position and go back to home, Goloka back [?]... Yad gatvā na nivartante tad dhāma paramam [[Bg. 15.6]. When you come to this position, that is happiness otherwise you go on theorizing, but one revolution will be... That is this world. "Yielding place to new. Old order changes, yielding place to new." This is revolution. So this will go on. What he is thinking now new, it will be old after some days, and another new thing will come, will be changed. So this is the order. "Old order changes, yielding place to new." Or, in other words, "History repeats itself."
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "This is purely the nature of matter, that there are always two conflicting properties, and that this inner." What they call it—impulse, "This inner pulsation of opposite forces, will cause history to take leaps." Like you just said, from one revolution to another. But the Communist revolution he calls, "The final revolution," because it is the perfect answer.
Prabhupāda: Yes. I can take it in this sense. If the Communist idea is spiritualized. So long the Communist idea will remain materialized, it is not final. We have got Communistic idea. Just like we believe... They believe that the state is the owner; we believe God is the owner. So this state is a small state, Russian state. They can be satisfied, but because it is wrong application... State is not the owner. [break]
Real owner is God. So from state, when they come to the conclusion, "Not the state but God is owner," then their Communistic idea will be fulfilled. And as they say that everything must be done for the state, we are actually teaching perfect Communism. We are teaching that Kṛṣṇa is the owner. Bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29].
Kṛṣṇa says, "I am the supreme enjoyer. Everything is..." Just like in our society we are doing everything for Kṛṣṇa because we know Kṛṣṇa is the enjoyer. Sarva-loka-mahe... He is the proprietor. So this Communistic idea is vague, but it can be perfected when they come to the conclusion, according to the Bhagavad-gītā, that Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor; He is the supreme enjoyer; He is the supreme friend of everyone. Then the people will be happy.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: "Oh, we have got a friend in Kṛṣṇa." Just like Arjuna was certain that, "Kṛṣṇa is my charioteer. Now I am victor." And it is confirmed, yatra yogeśvaraḥ kṛṣṇaḥ: [Bg 18.78]
"Where Yogeśvara, Kṛṣṇa, is there," yatra pārtho dhanur-dharaḥ, tatra śrīr vijayo, "There victory and everything is there." So this is an idea. This idea can be welcomed provided they are prepared to replace the so-called state by God. Then it is [indistinct].
Śyāmasundara: Well, that's pretty unlikely because they, they consider that reality is composed of what appears to our senses.
Prabhupāda: That is not reality. Then where is the..., why there is revolution? If it is reality, then why it is being changed? So in this material world there is a vague idea, reality. Nothing reality. Everything false. Śaṅkarācārya therefore says, jagat mithyā: "It is false." There is no reality. What is reality? What is definition of reality?
Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: What appears to our senses.
Prabhupāda: Well, your senses are not reality.
Śyāmasundara: And economic determination.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are sensually thinking, but your senses are not reality. They are imperfect. Your eyes... You are thinking, "I am seeing reality," but you are not seeing reality. Just like you see, daily seeing the sun. Really you are seeing. But if you do not know what is sun. Then what is the benefit of that seeing?
Śyāmasundara: He says whatever, whatever is useful...
Prabhupāda: Useful, useful... So far you are seeing the sun, you know the sunshine is useful, the sun heat is useful. That does not mean that you have understood the sun as reality. The superficial benefit you are getting. That does not mean that you know reality. Do you know? You are getting sunshine; you are utilizing it. Sun's heat, you are utilizing. Does it mean that you know really what is sun?
Śyāmasundara: He would say that the only reality instead of the sun is that the crops would grow, feed everyone.
Prabhupāda: That's all... They are simply by-products, simply by-products. But you do not know the reality. If you speak of reality, if you are satisfied only with by-product of the reality, then that is a different thing. But when you speak of reality it does not mean, because it appeals to your senses, therefore it is reality, because your senses are imperfect. You cannot realize anything perfectly with these defective senses. [bird noise in background]
Śyāmasundara: He says that, "If there is anything beyond the appearances, physical world, it is also physical, that everything is physical, everything is material."
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Physical... Even physical, you do not know. Even this physical manifestation of this universe, what do you know about it? You do not know. There are so many planets. You cannot go even in the moon light... ah moon planet.
Śyāmasundara: He says, "It's only necessary to know what applies to us, what practical..."
Prabhupāda: Then don't talk of reality... Don't talk of reality.
Śyāmasundara: I only need to know that which is useful for me.
Prabhupāda: That use, it is for you but because your knowledge is so poor. Just like a low class man, he will think, "This police constable is government." Eh? Because he is a low class man, the police constable takes him to the custody, and he is controlled by the police cons..., so he is not his father and mother. But for a high personality the police constable is nothing. There are so many others. So this reality is relative according to the person. He is a man with poor fund of knowledge. Therefore immediate effective, that is reality. Just like child. He thinks a lozenges which is two cent worth, he thinks this is reality. But to his father that two cents worth lozenges...
[aside:] Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa.
To his father, ah he will think, "What is this lozenges?" The child will appreciate, "Oh, father, it is so nice. It is heaven. It is so sweet." That means reality according to the person... So he is a man with poor fund of knowledge; therefore he is accepting reality which is giving him some immediate profit. That's all.
Śyāmasundara: Yes. Just like he considers Kant's idea, "The things in themselves," to be, "The things for us,"...
Prabhupāda: [aside:] You can change that.
Śyāmasundara: ...instead of something existing in itself that, "Everything exists for us and everything exists for my use."
Prabhupāda: Yes. The animal also thinks that, "This is reality." "I have got one goat," a tiger thinks, "To eat. Oh, this is reality."
Śyāmasundara: This is just for me.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That is... These things are discussed in Upaniṣads. The student asks, "What is reality?" He says just, "Think over." Now he came that, "Eatables are reality," because he's a small child. So he says, "No, this is not reality. You think over." In this way, this way, one after, one after another, one after another, he finally came to Brahman. So this reality differs according to knowledge. Just like... The same example: a child. Two things: one lugdoo and one, one-thousand-dollar note—which one he will take? He will take this lugdoo. For him this is reality.
Śyāmasundara: Yeah.
Prabhupāda: He does not know what is the value of this paper. But for his father, which one of them, he'll take immediately...
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So reality means according to your knowledge.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: So these are poor class of men; therefore they are always talking of economic production and this and that, the immediate... That's all.
Śyāmasundara: In fact, he says that, "What is practical is the criterion for truth." That is also relative—what is practical. Just like for the child the practical thing is the laddu.
Prabhupāda: Yes. That's all right. For a child the is reality, but that does not mean that this equal to that one thousand dollar note.
Śyāmasundara: So we have to find out what is really practical.
Prabhupāda: Yes. No, practical, both things practical. But according to the person—the value is different.
Śyāmasundara: Oh. But isn't there an absolute value?
Prabhupāda: The absolute value is God. That is revealed. Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi. That is our objective. We take in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam [1.1.1] that janmādy asya yataḥ: "The original source of everything." Satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi: "I meditate upon the Supreme Truth, Absolute Truth."
Śyāmasundara: And that is also practical?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Why not practical? Do you mean to say that you are, all Kṛṣṇa conscious people, you are after something impractical?
Śyāmasundara: Well, they would say...
Prabhupāda: They may say. What is your position? They may say.
Śyāmasundara: The practical thing is that it makes us happy.
Prabhupāda: Huh?
Śyāmasundara: The practical result is that we are happy.
Prabhupāda: So anyway, unless you feel practical—why you are after it? That is my proposal.
Śyāmasundara: Yes.
Prabhupāda: They may say whatever nonsense they can say.
Śyāmasundara: So the practical result should be satisfaction—happiness.
Prabhupāda: You are eating, but somebody says, "What you are doing?" But you by eating, if you feel satisfaction of your hunger, that is practical. You haven't got to take certificate from others. You are eating; if you feel satisfaction; if you feel strong; that is reality.
Śyāmasundara: So these men both of them, they have a great faith that philosophy can change the world.
Prabhupāda: And this is the real philosophy. Janmādy asya yataḥ [Bhāg. 1.1.1]. This is philosophy. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. This is reality... What is the original source? This is real philosophy. What is that Absolute Truth? Everything is relative truth. What is the Absolute Truth? That is philosophy, Vedānta philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: That has social effects that could change the world?
Prabhupāda: Yes. Then are here. Therefore our whole Indian, Vedic civilization, is standing on Vedānta philosophy. And Bhāgavata is explanation of Vedānta philosophy.
Śyāmasundara: So the source of everything...
Prabhupāda: Everything is there, ideal.
Śyāmasundara: So that's all today. Tomorrow we will discuss Mao Tse Tung...
Prabhupāda: Eh?
Śyāmasundara: Mao Tse Tung the Chinese Communist.
Prabhupāda: Oh, oh Mao.
Śyāmasundara: Mao. [end]