Participants:
Prabhupāda
TEXT 17
Śrī Devahūti inquired: "My dear brāhmaṇa, whether the material nature ever gives release to the spirit soul? Because one is attracted by the other eternally, therefore how it is possible their separation?"
PURPORT
Devahūti, the mother of Kapiladeva, the first inquiry is that in spite of understanding that a spirit soul and matter is different or the spirit soul is different from the matter, matter is different from spirit...
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...philosophical speculation or by proper understanding, actually the separation is not possible because the spirit soul is marginal potency of the Supreme Lord, and the matter is also external potency of the Lord. Somehow or other they have combined, but the potencies are eternal. Two eternal potencies are combined together, and so long they are combined together it is difficult to separate one from the another. So how is it possible that the individual soul can become liberated? Actually by practical experience one can see that when the soul is separated from the body, the body has practically no existence. And when the body is separated from the soul, one cannot perceive the existence of the soul. So, so long there is combination of the soul and the body, we can understand. But when they are differentiated or separated, practically there is no existence of the body and the soul. This question of Devahūti to Kapiladeva is more or less impelled by the understanding of the philosophy of voidism. Just like the voidists they say that this consciousness is the production of combination of matter; and as soon as the consciousness is gone, the material combination becomes dissolved and therefore ultimately there is nothing but voidness. Such absence of consciousness is called nirvāṇa philosophy.
TEXT 18
TRANSLATION
As there is no separate existence of flavor and the earth or the water and its taste, similarly there cannot be any separate existence of intelligence and consciousness.
PURPORT
The example is given here that anything material has got some flavor. The flower or the earth or anything has got a flavor. So if the flavor is separated from the matter, matter cannot be identified. Just like if there is no taste of water, the water has no meaning; if there is no heat in the fire, the fire has no meaning. Similarly, when there is a want of consciousness or intelligence, the spirit has no meaning.
TEXT 19
TRANSLATION
Hence how can there be any freedom for the soul so long as the material nature acts on him and just the modes of material nature bind the soul even though he is a passive actor of all activities?
PURPORT
The living entity, although desires freedom from the contamination of matter, he is not given release. Actually, as soon as a living entity puts himselfs under the control of material nature the…, or the different modes of material nature, he acts influenced by the quality of material nature, he becomes passive. And it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gītā [3.27], prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmani sarvasah: a living entity is acting influenced by the different quality or modes of material nature, but unfortunately he is falsely thinking that he is acting. He is passive. In other words, he has no opportunity to get out of the control of the material nature because he is already conditioned by the matter, and in the Bhagavad-gītā it is also said that it is very difficult to get out of the clutches of material nature. So one may try in different ways to think that everything is void in the ultimate issue, there is no God, even there is anything spirit—that is impersonal. So that speculation may go on, but actually it is very difficult to get out of the clutches of material nature. So that question is put here by Devahūti that one may speculate in so many ways, but where is the liberation so long he is under the spell of material nature? The answer is also there in the Bhagavad-gītā [7.14]: that only one who has surrendered himself unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa: mām eva ye prapadyante. (m-a-m e-v-a y-a p-r-a-p-a-d-y-a-...
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...n-t-e) Persons who simply surrenders unto the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, he can be freed from the clutches of māyā.
So gradually Devahūti is coming to that point, so her questions are very intelligent. That how one can be liberated? One..., how can one be a pure in state of spiritual existence so long one is strongly hold..., strongly held by the modes of material nature? This is also an indication to the false meditator. There are many so-called meditators they think artificially that "I am the Supreme Spirit Soul and I am conducting the activities of the material nature. The sun is moving under my direction, the moon is rising and so on." They think by such contemplation or meditation they become free, but actually it is seen that just after finishing such nonsense meditation for a few minutes or a few hour, immediately they are captured by the modes of material nature. We have practically seen that a man after such high-sounding meditation, just immediately giving it up, he becomes thirsty and wants to smoke or drink. So practically he is under the grip of strong hold of material nature, and he is thinking that he is already separated from the clutches of māyā. So this question of Devahūti is for such person who falsely meditate that he is everything and…, or everything in the…, in the ultimate issue is void, there is no sinful activities or pious activities. These are all atheistic convention only. Actually, a living entity, unless he surrenders unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead as it is instructed in the Bhagavad-gītā, there is no liberation or there is no freedom from the clutches of māyā.
TEXT 20
TRANSLATION
Even if the great fear of such bondage is averted through mental speculation and inquiry into the fundamental principle in a particular case, the same may appear again since the cause of it has not ceased.
PURPORT
The cause of material bondage is…, is putting oneself under the control of matter by false ego of lording it over the material nature. The Bhagavad-gītā [Bg 7.27] says: icchā-dveṣa-samutthena (i-c-h-h-a-d-e-e-s-a...; samutthena: s-a-m-u-t-h-e-n-a). When there are two kinds of things arisen in the living entity, the concept of living entity, one is icchā. Icchā means desire—desire to lord it over the material nature or desire to be as great or as good as the Supreme Lord. This is desire. Everyone is desiring to be the greatest personality or one with the Supreme Lord; or if not one, some great personality in this material world. So this is called desire. And dveṣa. Dveṣa means enviousness. When one becomes envious of Kṛṣṇa or the Supreme Personality of Godhead and "Why Kṛṣṇa shall be all in all? I am also as good as Kṛṣṇa." This is called dveṣa. So the two things, desire and enviousness. Desire to lord it over and enviousness unto the Supreme Lord is the beginning of cause of material bondage. So long, therefore, a philosopher or a salvationist or a voidist has the same desire that he is the supreme or there is no God, he is everything, so the cause remains there, so there is no question of liberation.
So Devahūti very intelligently inquired, "So long the cause is there, theoretically one may analyze things and becomes freed, that by knowledge he has become freed and so on, speculation, but actually it is said that he is not freed." Therefore Bhagavad-gītā confirms it that after such speculative activities for many, many births, when actually one comes to his real consciousness and surrenders unto the Supreme Lord, Kṛṣṇa, then his fulfillment of research of knowledge is actually achieved. Theoretical freedom from material bondage and actual freedom of material bondage, there is gulf of difference. Therefore Bhāgavata says that…, that if one gives up…, gives up the auspicious path of devotional service, because devotional service is the only means to get liberation. So one who gives us this auspicious path of devotional service and simply tries to know...
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...kevala-bodha-labdhaye (k-e-v-a-l-a b-o-d-h-a; labdhaye: l-a-b-d-h-a-y-a). Kevala, kliśyanti. Kliśyanti means "takes trouble." A person simply spoils his valuable time in speculation but does not stick to actual devotional service of the Lord, their..., the result of such labor of love is that simply laboring, nothing more, no result. The labor of speculating is ended being exhausted only. So just like the example is given that husking the skin of paddy, there is no result of getting rice; rice is already gone. Similarly simply by speculative process, one cannot be freed from material bondage because the cause is there. So one has to nullify the cause, then the effect will be different. This is explained by the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the following verses.
TEXT 21
TRANSLATION
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: "That one can get liberation only by seriously discharging devotional service unto Me and thereby hearing for a long time about Me or from Me and by executing one's prescribed duties without any reaction and thus being freed from the contamination of matter.
PURPORT
Śrīdhara Svāmī comments in this connection that simply by association of material nature one does not become conditioned. The conditional life begins only by being infected by the modes of material nature. In other words, that if somebody is in connection with the police department, that does not mean that he is a criminal. And so long one does not commit criminality, even there is a police department, he has no connection with that. Similarly, to associate with material nature just at the present moment, even who is called a liberated soul, he is also in association with the material nature, but it does not mean that he is affected by it.
Even the Supreme Personality of Godhead when He descends in the material world, He is supposed to be in association with the material nature, but He is not affected. So one has to act in such a way that in spite of being in material nature one is not affected by its contamination. There is one nice example that the lotus flower, although in association with water, it does not mix with the water. So in such a way one has to live, and that is described here by the Personality of Godhead Kapiladeva: animitta-nimittena (a-n-i-m-i-t-t-a n-i-m-i-t-t-e-n-a) animittena animitta-nimittena sva-dharmeṇāmalātmanā(s-w-a d-h-a-r-m-a-n-e-a-m-a-l-a-m-t-a-m-n-a). Here ends the tape, no more recording.
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