Socrates (470?-399 B.C.)

Hayagrīva dāsa: When a student of Socrates once said, "I cannot refute you, Socrates," Socrates replied, "Say, rather, that you cannot refute the truth, for Socrates is easily refuted." He thus considered the Absolute Truth transcendental to mental speculation and personal opinion.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is correct. If we accept Kṛṣṇa, God, as the supreme authority, the Absolute Truth, we cannot refute what He says. Kṛṣṇa, or God, is by definition supreme perfection, and philosophy is perfect when it is in harmony with Him. This is our position. The philosophy of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is religious because it is concerned with carrying out the orders of God. That is the sum and substance of religion. It is not possible to manufacture a religion. In Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, manufactured religion is called dharma-kaitava, just another form of cheating. Our basic principle is given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

“Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods, nor the leaders of Siddha-loka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." (Bhāg. 6.3.19) The word "dharma" refers to the orders given by God, and if we follow those orders, we are following dharma. An individual citizen cannot manufacture laws, because laws are given by the government. Our perfection is in following the orders of God cent per cent. Those who have no conception of God or His orders may manufacture religious systems, but our system is different.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: It seems that Socrates was more or less a dhyāna-yogī because he thought that we could arrive at the truth by approaching a subject from every mental angle until there was nothing left but the truth.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: He was a muni, a great thinker. However, the real truth comes to such a muni by that process after many, many births. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā:

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." (Bg. 7.19)

These people are known as jñānavān, wise men, and after many births, they surrender themselves to Kṛṣṇa. They do not do so blindly, but knowing that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the source of everything. However, this process of self-searching for knowledge takes time. If we take the instructions of Kṛṣṇa directly and surrender unto Him, we save time and many, many births.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates believed that the soul, which is tied up with intelligence, carries knowledge from existence to existence. The truth can be evoked through the maieutic method, the Socratic dialectic. Since someone can make us understand the truth and admit it, we must have known the truth in a previous existence. Thus our intelligence is eternal.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, because the soul is eternal, the intelligence, mind, and senses are also eternal. However, they are all now covered by a material coating, which must be cleansed. Once this material coating is washed away, the real mind, intelligence, and senses will emerge. That is stated in the Nārada-pañcarātra: tat paratvena nirmalam. The purificatory process necessitates being in touch with the transcendental loving service of the Lord. This means chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra. Caitanya Mahāprabhu said: ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam (Śikṣāṣṭaka 1). "We must cleanse the heart." All misconceptions come from misunderstanding. We are all part and parcel of God, yet somehow or other we have forgotten this. Previously, our service was rendered to God, but now we are rendering service to something illusory. This is māyā. Whether liberated or conditioned, our constitutional position is to render service. In the material world, we work according to our different capacities—as a politician, an industrialist, a thinker, a poet, or whatever. But if we are not connected with Kṛṣṇa, all of this is māyā. When we perform our duty in order to develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness, our very same duty enables liberation from this bondage. In any case, both life and knowledge are continuous. Consequently, one person can acquire knowledge very quickly, whereas another cannot. This is proof of continuity.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In a dialogue with Socrates, Protagoras said, "Truth is relative. It is only a matter of opinion." Socrates then asked, "Do you mean that truth is mere subjective opinion?" Protagoras replied, "Exactly. What is true for you is true for you, and what is true for me is true for me. Thus truth is subjective." Socrates then asked, "Do you really mean that my opinion is true by virtue of its being my opinion?" Protagoras said, "Indeed I do." Socrates then said, "My opinion is that truth is absolute, not subjective, and that you, Protagoras, are absolutely in error. Since this is my opinion, you must grant that it is true according to your philosophy." Protagoras then admitted, "You are quite correct, Socrates." Through this kind of dialogue, or dialectic, Socrates would logically convince many people.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is what we are also doing. The Absolute Truth is true for everyone, and the relative truth is relative to a particular position. The relative truth depends on the Absolute Truth, which is the summum bonum. God is the Absolute Truth, and the material world is relative truth. Because the material world is God's energy, it appears to be real or true, just as the reflection of the sun in water emits some light. That reflection is not absolute, and as soon as the sun sets, that light will disappear. Since relative truth is a reflection of the Absolute Truth, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam states: satyaṁ paraṁ dhīmahi, "I worship the Absolute Truth." (Bhāg. 1.1.1) The Absolute Truth is Kṛṣṇa, Vāsudeva. Oṁ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya. This cosmic manifestation is relative truth; it is a manifestation of Kṛṣṇa's external energy. If Kṛṣṇa withdrew His energy, the universal creation would not exist. In another sense, Kṛṣṇa and Kṛṣṇa's energy are not different. We cannot separate heat from fire; heat is also fire, yet heat is not fire. This is the position of relative truth. As soon as we experience heat, we understand that there is fire. Yet we cannot say that heat is fire. Relative truth is like heat because it stands on the strength of the Absolute Truth, just as heat stands on the strength of fire. Because the Absolute is true, relative truth also appears to be true, although it has no independent existence. A mirage appears to be water because in actuality there is such a thing as water. Similarly, this material world appears attractive because there is an all-attractive spiritual world.

Hayagrīva dāsa: According to Socrates, the real pursuit of man is the search for the Absolute Good. Basically, Socrates is an impersonalist because he does not ultimately define this Absolute Good as a person, nor does he give it a personal name.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is the preliminary stage of understanding the Absolute, known as Brahman realization, realization of the impersonal feature. When one is further advanced, he attains Paramātmā realization, realization of the localized feature, whereby he realizes that God is everywhere. It is a fact that God is everywhere, but at the same time God has His own abode. Goloka eva nivasaty akhilātma-bhūtaḥ (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.37). God is a person, and He has His own abode and associates. Although He is in His abode, He is present everywhere, within every atom. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-cayāntara-stham (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.35). Like other impersonalists, Socrates cannot understand how God, through His potency, can remain in His own abode and simultaneously be present in every atom. The material world is His expansion, His energy.

"Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies." (Bg. 7.4) Because His energy is expanded everywhere, He can be present everywhere. Although the energy and the energetic are nondifferent, we cannot say that they are not distinct. They are simultaneously one and different. This is the perfect philosophy of acintya-bhedābheda-tattva.

Hayagrīva dāsa: The Good of which Socrates speaks is different from sattva-guṇa. In The Republic, Socrates says that it is the Good which gives truth to the objects of knowledge and the very power of knowing to him who knows them. He speaks of the Form of essential goodness as the cause of knowledge and truth. Although we may consider the Good to be an object of knowledge, it would be better if we regarded it as being beyond truth and knowledge and of higher value. Both knowledge and truth are therefore to be regarded as like unto the Good, but it is incorrect to identify either with the Good. He believes that the Good must hold a higher place of honor. Objects of knowledge derive their very being and reality from the Good, which is beyond being itself and surpasses it in dignity and power.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Sattva-guṇa, the mode of goodness, is a position from which we can receive knowledge. Knowledge cannot be received from the platform of passion and ignorance. If we hear about Kṛṣṇa, or God, we are gradually freed from the clutches of darkness and passion. Then we can come to the platform of sattva-guṇa, and when we are perfectly situated there, we are beyond the lower modes. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says:

"By regularly hearing the Bhāgavatam and rendering service unto the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is practically destroyed, and loving service unto the glorious Lord, who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable fact. At the time loving service is established in the heart, the modes of passion (rajas), and ignorance (tamas), and lust and desire (kāma), disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes happy." (Bhāg. 1.2.18-19)

This process may be gradual, but it is certain. The more we hear about Kṛṣṇa, the more we become purified. Purification means freedom from the attacks of greed and passion. Then we can become happy. From the brahma-bhūta platform, we can realize ourselves and then realize God. So before realizing the Supreme Good, we must first come to the platform of sattva-guṇa, goodness. Therefore we have regulations prohibiting illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling. Ultimately, we must transcend even the mode of goodness through bhakti. Then we become liberated, gradually develop love of God, and regain our original state.

"When the living entity, along with his conditional living tendency, merges with the mystic lying down of the Mahā-viṣṇu, it is called the winding up of the cosmic manifestation. Liberation is the permanent situation of the form of the living entity after giving up the changeable material gross and subtle bodies." (Bhāg. 2.10.6) This means giving up all material engagements and rendering full service to Kṛṣṇa. Then we attain the state where māyā cannot touch us. If we keep in touch with Kṛṣṇa, māyā has no jurisdiction.

"This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it." (Bg. 7.14) This is perfection.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Socrates taught a process of liberation comparable to that of dhyāna-yoga. For him, liberation meant freedom from passion, and he approved the saying gnothi seauton—"Know thyself." By knowing ourselves through meditation, or insight, we can gain self-control, and by being self-controlled, we can attain happiness.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. Meditation means analyzing the self and searching for the Absolute Truth. That is described in the Vedic literatures: dhyānāvasthita-tad-gatena manasā paśyanti yaṁ yoginaḥ (Bhāg. 12.13.1). Through meditation, the yogī sees the Supreme Truth (Kṛṣṇa, or God) within himself. Kṛṣṇa is there. The yogī consults with Kṛṣṇa, and Kṛṣṇa advises him. That is the relationship Kṛṣṇa has with the yogī. Buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmyaham. When one is purified, he is always seeing Kṛṣṇa within himself. This is confirmed in Brahma-saṁhitā:

"I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee." (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.38) Thus an advanced saintly person is always seeing Kṛṣṇa. In this verse, the word syāma means "blackish," but at the same time extraordinarily beautiful. The word acintya means that He has unlimited qualities. Although He is situated everywhere, as Govinda He is always dancing in Vṛndāvana with the gopīs. In Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa plays with His friends, and sometimes, acting as a naughty boy, teases His mother. These pastimes of the Supreme Person are described in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: As far as we know, Socrates was a self-taught man. Is it possible for a person to be self-taught? That is, can self-knowledge be attained through meditation, or introspection?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. Ordinarily, everyone thinks according to the bodily conception. If I begin to study the different parts of my body and seriously begin to consider what I am, I will gradually arrive at the study of the soul. If I ask myself, "Am I this hand?" the answer will be, "No, I am not this hand. Rather, this is my hand." I can thus continue analyzing each part of the body and discover that all the parts are mine but that I am different. Through this method of self-study, any intelligent man can see that he is not the body. This is the first lesson of Bhagavad-gītā:

"As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change." (Bg. 2.13)

At one time I had the body of a child, but now that body is no longer existing. Still, I am aware that I possessed such a body; therefore from this I can deduce that I am something other than the body. I may rent an apartment, but I do not identify with it. The body may be mine, but I am not the body. By this kind of introspection, a man can teach himself the distinction between the body and the soul.

As far as being completely self-taught—according to Bhagavad-gītā and the Vedic conception, life is continuous. Since we are always acquiring experience, we cannot say that Socrates was self-taught. Rather, in his previous lives he cultivated knowledge, and this knowledge is continuing. That is a fact. Otherwise, why is one man intelligent and another man ignorant? This is due to continuity.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Socrates believed that through meditation, a person can attain knowledge, and through knowledge he can become virtuous. When he is virtuous, he acts in the right way, and by so doing, becomes happy. Therefore the enlightened man is meditative, knowledgeable, and virtuous. He is also happy because he acts properly.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā:

"One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." (Bg. 18.54) When one is self-realized, he immediately becomes happy, joyful (prasannātmā). This is because he is properly situated. A person may labor a long time under some mistaken idea, but when he finally comes to the proper conclusion, he becomes very happy. He thinks, "Oh, what a fool I was, going on so long in such a mistaken way." Thus a self-realized person is happy. Happiness means that you no longer have to think of attaining things. For instance, Dhruva Mahārāja told the Lord: Svāmin kṛtārtho 'smi. "I don't want any material benediction." Prahlada Mahārāja also said, "My Lord, I don't want any material benefits. I have seen my father, who was such a big materialist that even the demigods were afraid of him, destroyed by You within a second. Therefore I am not after these things." Real knowledge means that you no longer hanker. The karmīs, jñānīs, and yogīs are all hankering after something. The karmīs want material wealth, beautiful women and good positions. If one is not hankering for what one does not have, he is lamenting for what he has lost. The jñānīs are also hankering, expecting to become one with God and merge into His existence. The yogīs are hankering after some magical powers to befool others into thinking that they have become God. In India, some yogīs convince people that they can manufacture gold and fly in the sky, and foolish people believe them. Even if a yogī can fly, there are many birds flying. What is the difference? An intelligent person can understand this. If a person says that he can walk on water, thousands of fools will come to see him. People will even pay ten rupees just to see a man bark like a dog, not thinking that there are many dogs barking anyway. In any case, people are always hankering and lamenting, but the devotee is fully satisfied in the service of the Lord. The devotee doesn't hanker for anything, nor does he lament.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Through jñāna, the path of meditation, it seems that Socrates realized Brahman. Could he also have realized Paramātmā?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva dāsa: But what of the realization of Bhagāvan, Kṛṣṇa? I thought that Kṛṣṇa can be realized only through bhakti.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, no one can enter into Kṛṣṇa's abode without being a purified bhakta. That is stated in Bhagavad-gītā:

"One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of the Supreme Lord by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God." (Bg. 18.55) Kṛṣṇa never says that He can be understood by jñāna, karma, or yoga. The personal abode of Kṛṣṇa is especially reserved for the bhaktas, and the jñānīs, yogīs, and karmīs cannot go there.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: When you say that Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the ultimate goal of life, does this mean always being conscious of Kṛṣṇa?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, we should always be thinking of Kṛṣṇa. We should act in such a way that we have to think of Kṛṣṇa all the time. For instance, we are discussing the philosophy of Socrates in order to strengthen our Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Therefore the ultimate goal is Kṛṣṇa. Otherwise, we are not interested in criticizing or accepting anyone's philosophy. We are neutral.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: So the proper use of intelligence is to guide everything in such a way that we become Kṛṣṇa conscious?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is it. Without Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we remain on the mental platform. Being on the mental platform means hovering. On that platform, we are not fixed. It is the business of the mind to accept this and reject that, but when we are fixed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are no longer subjected to the mind's accepting and rejecting.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Right conduct then becomes automatic?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. As soon as the mind wanders, we should immediately drag it back to concentrate on Kṛṣṇa. While chanting, our mind sometimes wanders far away, but when we become conscious of this, we should immediately bring the mind back to hear the sound vibration of Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is called yoga-abhyās, the practice of yoga. We should not allow the mind to wander elsewhere. We should simply chant and hear. That is the best yoga system.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In addition to believing in the value of insight, or meditation, Socrates also believed that knowledge can be imparted from one person to another. He therefore asserted the importance of a guru, which he himself was for many people. Sometimes, posing as an ignorant person, Socrates would question his disciples. He would not offer the answers but would try to draw them out of his disciples, a process known as the maieutic method. He considered himself to be a kind of midwife drawing the truth from the repository of the soul.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is similar to our method because we say that you must approach a guru in order to learn the truth. This is the instruction given in all the Vedic scriptures. In Bhagavad-gītā, Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself advises:

"Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth." (Bg. 4.34) A guru who knows the truth is one who has seen the truth. People say, "Can you show me God?" It is a natural tendency to want to know something by direct perception. This is possible by advanced devotion. As I have already explained: santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti. The realized devotee is constantly seeing the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śyāmasundara. You can constantly see the Supreme Lord as Paramātmā sitting within your heart, and you can take advice from Him. Kṛṣṇa also confirms this: buddhi-yogaṁ dadāmyaham. Yoga means concentrating the mind in order to see the Supersoul within. Therefore you have to control the activities of the senses and withdraw them from material engagement. When your concentration is perfect, when your mind is focused on Paramātmā, you always see Him. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says:

“And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." (Bg. 6.47) The perfect yogī sees God constantly within. That is perfection. The process that Socrates used gave his disciples a good chance to develop their understanding. When a parent raises his child, he first of all takes his hand and teaches him how to walk. Sometimes he gives the child freedom to walk on his own, although he may sometimes fall down. The father then encourages the child, saying, "Ah, you are doing very nicely. Stand up again and walk." Similarly, the guru gives his disciple the chance to think properly in order to go back home, back to Godhead. Sometimes, when a person comes to argue, the guru says, "All right, what do you consider important?" In this way, the person's position is understood. An expert teacher knows how to capture a fool. First, let the fool go on and speak all sorts of nonsense. Then he can understand where he is having difficulty. That is also a process.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates recommended good association because if one is to develop good qualities, he must associate with those who are virtuous and similarly interested.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is very valuable. Without good association, we cannot develop Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura sings: Tādera caraṇa-sebi-bhakta-sane bās janame janame hoy ei abhilāṣ. "My dear Lord, please allow me to live with those devotees who serve the lotus feet of the six Gosvāmīs. This is my desire, life after life." (Nāma-saṅkīrtana 7) The aim of this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is to create a society in which devotees can associate with one another.

Hayagrīva dāsa: It has been said that Socrates's philosophy is primarily a philosophy of ethics, pointing to the way of action in the world. Jñāna, or knowledge in itself, is not sufficient. It must be applied, and must serve as a basis for activity.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, ethics form the basic principle of purification. We cannot be purified unless we know what is moral and what is immoral. Unfortunately, everything in this material world is more or less immoral, but we still have to distinguish between good and bad. Therefore we have regulative principles. By following them, we can come to the spiritual platform and transcend the influence of the three modes of material nature. Passion is the binding force in the material world. In a prison, prisoners are sometimes shackled, and similarly, material nature provides the shackles of sex life to bind us to this material world. This is the mode of rajas, passion. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says:

"It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material mode of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring sinful enemy of this world." (Bg. 3.37) Rajo-guṇa, the mode of passion, includes kāma, lusty desires. When our lusty desires are not fulfilled, we become angry (krodha). All this binds us to the material world. As stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

"As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire, and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy." (Bhāg. 1.2.19) When we are subjected to the lower material modes (rajo-guṇa and tamo-guṇa), we become greedy and lusty. Ethics provide a way to escape the clutches of greed and lust. Then we can come to the platform of goodness and from there attain the spiritual platform.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Is meditation in itself sufficient to transcend these lower modes?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. If we seek the Supersoul within, our meditation is perfect. But if we manufacture something in the name of transcendental meditation in order to bluff others, it is useless.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates believed that ignorance results in bad actions, and that the knowledgeable man will automatically act properly.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: When an ignorant child touches fire and is burned, he cries. His distress is due to ignorance. An intelligent person will not touch fire because he knows its properties. Thus ignorance is the cause of bondage and suffering. It is due to ignorance that people commit many sinful activities and become entangled.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Does this mean that when people are enlightened with proper knowledge, they will automatically become good?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes. It is stated in Bhagavad-gītā:

"As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities." (Bg. 4.37) The fire of knowledge consumes all sinful activities. To this end, there is need for education. People are born ignorant, and education is needed to remove their ignorance. Since they are born illusioned by the bodily conception, people act like animals. They therefore have to be educated to understand that they are different from the material body.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Why is it that some people who receive this knowledge later reject it?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Then it is not perfect knowledge. When one actually receives perfect knowledge, he becomes good. This is a fact. If one is not good, it is because he has not received perfect knowledge.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Is there not a class of men that is always evil?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Can any man be made good?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Certainly, because the soul is by nature good. The living entity is covered by the inferior modes of material nature, by passion and ignorance. When he is cleansed of this covering, his goodness will emerge. The soul is originally good because it is part and parcel of God, and God is all good. That which is part and parcel of gold is also gold. Although the soul is covered by matter, the soul is all good. When a sharpened knife is covered by rust, it loses its sharpness. If we remove the rust, the knife will once again be sharp.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Does the existence of evil in the world mean that there is absolute evil?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Absolute evil means forgetfulness of the Absolute Truth. Kṛṣṇa is the Absolute Truth, and lack of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is absolute evil. In terms of the absolute evil, we may say that this is good and that is bad, but all this is mental concoction.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Generally speaking, Socrates was more concerned with God as a moral reality than as a personal conception.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Moral reality is necessarily personal. If a man is moral, we say that he is honest. If he follows no moral principles, we say that he is dishonest. Thus morality and immorality refer to a person. How can we deny personal morality?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then if God is pure morality, He must be a person.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Certainly. All good. God is good, and this means that He is full of morality.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates taught that good deeds bring happiness and that to perform them is the real goal of life.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is the law of karma. If I work hard in this life, I earn money. If I study hard, I acquire an education. However, if I neither work nor study, I remain poor and uneducated. This is the law of karma. According to the Vedic varṇāśrama-dharma, society is divided into four castes: brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. Each caste has its particular duty, but that duty is connected to God's service. In other words, everyone can satisfy the Supreme Lord by performing his duty. By walking, the legs perform their duty, and by touching or holding, the hands perform their duty. Every part of the body performs a duty alotted to it. Similarly, we are all part and parcel of God, and if we do our duty, we are serving God. This is the system of varṇāśrama-dharma. Kṛṣṇa Himself says in Bhagavad-gītā:

"According to the three modes of material nature and the work ascribed to them, the four divisions of human society were created by Me." (Bg. 4.13)

It is further stated:

"By worship of the Lord, who is the source of all beings and who is all-pervading, man can, in the performance of his own duty, attain perfection." (Bg. 18.46) Thus the respective duties of the brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya, or śūdra can be dovetailed to the service of the Lord, and by doing so, any man can attain perfection.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Is moral improvement the highest goal of mankind, or is there something higher?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: First of all, we must understand what morality is. Morality means discharging our prescribed duties without hindering others in the execution of their duties. That is morality.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: What do you consider the shortcomings of a philosophy devoted to moral improvement and knowing oneself through pure reason alone?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Knowing oneself through pure reason alone will take time. Of course, in European philosophy, there is an attempt at more independent thought, but such independent thinking is not approved by the followers of the Vedas. The Vedic followers receive knowledge directly from authorities. They do not speculate. We cannot attain knowledge through speculation because everyone is imperfect. A person may be proud of seeing, but he does not know that his eyesight is conditioned. Unless there is sunlight, he cannot see. Therefore, what is the intrinsic value of eyesight? We should not be very proud of seeing or thinking because our senses are imperfect. We therefore have to receive knowledge from the perfect. In this way, we save time.

According to the Vedic system, we receive knowledge from Vyāsadeva, Nārada, and Śrī Kṛṣṇa Himself. This knowledge is perfect because these personalities are not subjected to the four defects of conditioned living entities. The conditioned living entity has a tendency to commit mistakes, to be illusioned, to have imperfect senses, and to cheat. These are the four imperfections of conditional life. We therefore have to receive knowledge from those who are liberated. This is the Vedic process. If we receive knowledge from Kṛṣṇa, there cannot be any mistake, nor any question of illusion. Our senses may be imperfect, but Kṛṣṇa's senses are perfect; therefore whatever Kṛṣṇa says, we accept, and that acceptance is our perfection. A person may search for years to find out who his father is, but the immediate answer is available through his mother. The best way to solve this problem is by directly asking the mother. Similarly, all knowledge received from the perfect liberated person or from the mother Vedas is perfect.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates's emphasis was on humanity and ethical action. He said that our lives should be composed of good deeds because we can attain the highest perfection by being virtuous.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, to do good work is also recommended in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is possible to go home, back to Godhead, if we always work for the benefit of others. This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means benefitting others twenty-four hours a day. People are lacking knowledge of God, and we are preaching this knowledge. This is the highest humanitarian work: to elevate the ignorant to the platform of knowledge.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But wouldn't you say that there is something more than moral improvement? Isn't that just a by-product of something else?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, real improvement is realizing God and our relationship with Him. In order to come to this platform, morality or purity is required. God is pure, and unless we are also pure, we cannot approach God. Therefore we are prohibiting meat eating, illicit sex, intoxication, and gambling. These are immoral habits that are always keeping us impure. Unless we abandon these impure habits, we cannot progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then morality is just a qualification for becoming God conscious, isn't it?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If we take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we automatically become moral. On the one hand, we have to observe the regulative moral principles, and on the other hand we have to develop our tendency to serve Kṛṣṇa more and more. By serving Kṛṣṇa, we become moral. However, if we try to be moral without serving Kṛṣṇa, we will fail. Therefore so-called followers of morality are always frustrated. The goal is transcendental to human morality. We have to come to the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in order to be truly moral. According to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

"All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge, and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva. On the other hand, a person devoid of devotional service and engaged in material activities has no good qualities. Even if he is adept at the practice of mystic yoga or the honest endeavor of maintaining his family and relatives, he must be driven by his own mental speculations and must engage in the service of the Lord's external energy. How can there be any good qualities in such a man?" (Bhāg. 5.18.12)

The conclusion is that we cannot be moral without being devotees. We may artificially try to be moral, but ultimately we will fail.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: By virtue of his intelligence, Socrates could keep his passions controlled, but most people do not have such intellectual strength. They are not able to control themselves rationally and act properly. How does Kṛṣṇa consciousness help in this endeavor?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Kṛṣṇa consciousness purifies the intelligence, the mind, and the senses. Since everything is purified, there is no chance in being employed in anything but Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Anyone can do this under the proper guidance, whereas not everyone can do as Socrates did. The common man does not have sufficient intelligence to control himself without spiritual exercise. Yet, despite his intelligence, Socrates had no clear conception of God. In Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna tells Śrī Kṛṣṇa:

"You are the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier, the Absolute Truth and the eternal divine person. You are the primal God, transcendental and original, and You are the unborn and all-pervading beauty." (Bg. 10.12)

The word pavitram means "the purest." This includes all morality. Acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness is the best morality, and this is supported in Bhagavad-gītā:

"Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service, he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated." (Bg. 9.30) Even if a person is considered immoral from the mundane point of view, he should be regarded as moral if he acts on the platform of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Sometimes a person in Kṛṣṇa consciousness may appear to act immorally. For instance, in the dead of night, the young cowherd girls of Vṛndāvana left their husbands and fathers to go to the forest to see Kṛṣṇa. From the materialistic point of view, this is immoral, but because their actions were connected with Kṛṣṇa, they are considered highly moral. By nature, Arjuna was not inclined to kill, even at the risk of his kingdom, but Kṛṣṇa wanted him to fight; therefore Arjuna entered the battle and acted morally, even though he was killing people.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then, you are saying that morality is absolute as long as it is in relation with Kṛṣṇa?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If Kṛṣṇa or His representative says, "Do this," that act is moral. We cannot create morality. We cannot say, "I am a devotee of Kṛṣṇa; therefore I can kill." No. We cannot do anything unless we receive a direct order.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But can leading a life that is honest, or based on doing good to others, lead us to ultimate happiness?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Unless we are Kṛṣṇa conscious, there is no meaning to honesty and morality. They are artificial. People are always saying, "This is mine." But our accepting proprietorship is actually immoral hecause nothing belongs to us. Īśāvāsyam idaṁ sarvam (Īśopaniṣad 1). Everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa. We cannot say, "This table is mine. This wife is mine. This house is mine." It is immoral to claim another's properly as our own.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates defines right as that which is beneficial to others, and wrong as that which does harm to others.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is a general definition, but we should know what is beneficial for others. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is beneficial, and anything else is not beneficial.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For instance, he states that stealing, lying, cheating, hating, and other evils, are absolutely bad. Yet if there is a necessity to cheat or lie in order to serve Kṛṣṇa, would that be bad?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Cheating and lying are not necessary. By cheating, we cannot serve Kṛṣṇa. That is not the principle. However, if Kṛṣṇa directly orders us to cheat, that is a different matter. But we cannot create that order. We cannot say, "Because I am Kṛṣṇa conscious, it is all right for me to cheat." No. However, once Kṛṣṇa asked Yudhiṣṭhira to go tell Droṇācārya that his son was dead, although his son was not. This was a kind of cheating, but because Kṛṣṇa directly ordered it, it was all right. Orders from Kṛṣṇa are transcendental to everything—morality and immorality. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, there is neither morality nor immorality. There is simply good.

Hayagrīva dāsa: The Athenian government accused Socrates of fostering atheism and blaspheming the gods because he felt that worship of the demigods in the Greek pantheon did not lead to self-realization.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, Socrates was right. Worship of the demigods is also discouraged in Bhagavad-gītā:

"Those whose minds are distorted by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures." (Bg. 7.20) Demigods are worshipped out of lust for some material benefit by one who has lost his intelligence (hṛta-jñāna), You may worship the demigod Sarasvatī, the goddess of learning, and thereby become a great scholar, but how long will you remain a scholar? When your body dies, your scholarly knowledge is finished. Then you have to accept another body and act accordingly. So how will scholastic knowledge help you? However, if you worship God Himself, the results are different.

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg. 4.9) To worship God means to know God. Knowing God means understanding how material nature is working under His directions. Kṛṣṇa says:

"This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." (Bg. 9.10) Because impersonalists cannot understand how a person can direct the wonderful activities of material nature, they remain impersonalists. But actually God is a person, and this is the understanding we get from Bhagavad-gītā:

"O conqueror of wealth [Arjuna], there is no Truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread." (Bg. 7.7) The word mattaḥ refers to a person.

"I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds. Everything emanates from Me. The wise who know this perfectly engage in My devotional service and worship Me with all their hearts." (Bg. 10.8)

The Vedānta-sūtra also confirms that the Absolute Truth is a person, and when Arjuna understood Bhagavad-gītā, he addressed Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān. "You are the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the ultimate abode, the purest, the Absolute Truth, and the eternal Divine Person." (Bg. 10.12) Understanding the Absolute Truth means understanding the three features of the Absolute Truth: the impersonal, the localized, and the personal.

"Learned transcendentalists who know the Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramātmā, and Bhagāvan." (Bhāg. 1.2.11) The Absolute Truth is one, but there are different features. One mountain seen from different distances appears different. From a far distance, the Absolute Truth appears impersonal, but as you approach, you see Paramātmā present everywhere. When you come even nearer, you can perceive Bhagāvan, the Supreme Person.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Socrates deliberately took poison in order not to contradict himself. The government told him that if he retracted his statements, he could live, but he preferred to be a martyr for his own beliefs.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is good that he stuck to his point, yet regrettable that he lived in a society that would not permit him to think independently. Therefore he was obliged to die. In that sense, Socrates was a great soul. Although he appeared in a society that was not very advanced, he was nonetheless a great philosopher.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Socrates considered the contemplation of beauty to be an activity of the wise man, but relative beauty in the mundane world is simply a reflection of absolute beauty. In the same way, good in the relative world is but a reflection of the absolute good. In any case, absolute good or beauty is transcendental.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also our view. Beauty, knowledge, strength, wealth, fame, and renunciation are all transcendental. In this material world, everything is a perverted reflection. A foolish animal may run after a mirage in the desert, thinking it water, but a sane man knows better. Although there is no water in the desert, we cannot conclude that there is no water at all. Water certainly exists. Similarly, real happiness, beauty, knowledge, strength, and the other opulences exist in the spiritual world, but here they are only reflected pervertedly. Generally, people have no information of the spiritual world; therefore they have to imagine something spiritual. They do not understand that this material world is imaginary.

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg. 4.9) Although people are reading Bhagavad-gītā, they cannot understand this very simple point. After giving up the material body, the devotee goes to Kṛṣṇa. Of course, the Christians say that after death, one goes to heaven or hell, and to some extent that is a fact. If we understand Kṛṣṇa in this lifetime, we can go to Kṛṣṇa's eternal abode; otherwise, we remain in this material world to undergo the same cycle of birth and death. That is hell.

Hayagrīva dāsa: At the conclusion of The Republic, Socrates gives the analogy of humanity living within a dark cave. The self-realized teacher has seen the light outside the cave. When he returns to the cave to inform the people that they are in darkness, many consider him crazy for speaking of such a thing as the light outside. Thus the teacher often puts himself in a very dangerous position.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is a fact. We often give the example of a frog within a dark well, thinking that his well is everything. When he is informed that there is an Atlantic Ocean, he cannot conceive of such a great quantity of water. Those who are in the dark well of material existence are surprised to hear that there is light outside. Everyone in the material world is suffering in the dark well of material existence, and we are throwing down this rope called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If people do not catch hold, what can we do? If you are fortunate, you can capture the Lord with the help of the teacher, but it is up to you to catch hold of the rope. Everyone is trying to get out of the misery of material existence. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says:

"Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear." (Bg. 18.66) Still, due to obstinance, people refuse, or do not believe Him. The Vedas also tell us, "Don't remain in the dark well. Come out into the light." Unfortunately, people want to become perfect and yet remain in the dark well. This material universe is by nature dark, and therefore Kṛṣṇa has supplied the sun and moon for light. Yet there is Kṛṣṇa's kingdom, which is different, as Kṛṣṇa Himself tells us in Bhagavad-gītā:

"That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world." (Bg. 15.6) In Kṛṣṇa's kingdom there is no need for sun, moon, or electricity. His kingdom is all effulgent. In the darkness of this material world, the only happiness is in sleep and sex. As stated in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

"Those who are materially engrossed, being blind to the knowledge of ultimate truth, are interested in hearing about many different subjects, O Emperor. The lifetime of such envious householders is passed at night either in sleeping or in sex indulgence, and in the day either in making money or maintaining family members." (Bhāg. 2.1.2-3)

Materialists spend much time reading newspapers, novels, and magazines. They have many forms of engagement because they are ignorant of self-realization. They think that life simply means living in a family surrounded by their wife, children, and friends. They work hard during the day for money, racing their cars at breakneck speed, and at night they either sleep or enjoy sex. This is just like the life of a hog constantly searching for stool. Yet all of this is taking place in the name of civilization. This kind of hoggish civilization is condemned in the Vedic literatures. Kṛṣṇa advises us to produce grains, eat fruits, vegetables, drink milk, and cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In this way, we can become happy.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Socrates speaks of everyone sitting in the cave, watching a kind of cinema composed of imitation forms.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This means that people are in darkness, and everything seen in darkness is not clear. Therefore the Vedic version is: "Don't remain in darkness. Come to the light." That light is the guru.

"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him." (Śrī Guru Praṇāma)