Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679)

Śyāmasundara dāsa: It is Hobbes who declared, "Whatever exists is matter, and whatever changes is motion." For him, mental or spiritual entities are not realities in their own right, but are merely by-products of matter. Spirit and mind perish when the material basis is destroyed.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Spirit is not a combination of material conditions. If so, why not combine matter in such a way as to produce living spirit, living forms?

Hayagrīva dāsa: Hobbes believed that a "substance incorporeal" is contradictory because nothing exists in the world but bodies. He defined God as "a most pure, simple, invisible, spirit corporeal."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Why invisible? When Kṛṣṇa came, He was certainly visible, for Arjuna was talking to Him face to face. God's visibility or invisibility depends on God's own good will. He is visible to one who is competent or perfect. Not only was He visible to Arjuna, but He reciprocated by answering Arjuna's questions. If we become qualified like Arjuna, we can see God and talk with Him. Then God will give direct instructions. God is invisible for one who is imperfect, but for one who is perfect, He is certainly visible.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Empiricists maintain that the only proof we have of anything is through our senses.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We say that since the senses are imperfect, whatever you believe through them is imperfect. This is very simple. When the sun rises in the morning, it is many millions of miles away, but can a child tell how far away it is? Who can really tell how far away the sun is?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: They have invented certain instruments to measure distance.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Therefore they have learned from some authority. Because they could not measure with their own senses, they have turned to instruments. But we should take the help of the expert instrument driver, Śrī Kṛṣṇa. What is the value of our senses if they are imperfect?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: So the mind or soul is not simply a physiological system?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The soul is a different energy. Heat and light emanate from the same source, fire. Nonetheless, heat is not light, and light is not heat. Sometimes we may feel heat, but that does not mean that there is light. Sometimes we may have light, but that does not mean that there is heat. Still, heat and light come from the same source.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: How is it that the soul and mind are different from the body?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: They are not different, but they are being manifested in different phases. At the moment, we are experiencing sunshine, and we are feeling heat from the sun, but if we approach the sun, we feel much more intense heat. If we approach very closely, we will be disintegrated.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But how is it that the soul is not produced by the body? How do we know that it is not a mere by-product?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: At death, all the physical parts of the body are present. But why is the man dead? What is missing? His heart may be present, but why is it not beating? All the parts of the body may be present, yet you can see that the body is dead. What is it that is missing?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Impulses are no longer being sent from the brain to the heart.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But why has the brain stopped? The brain's construction is all there. What is missing? Why not replace what is missing? If you are a mechanic, and the machine stops, you should be able to find the defect and immediately repair it. But no one has been able to do this with the body, no scientist or philosopher. They cannot meet such a challenge.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Hobbes is best known as a political philosopher, and in his most famous work, The Leviathan, he set forth his socio-political theories, as Machiavelli had done in The Prince. Hobbes's ruling body, or monarch, his "mortal god," who was under the immortal God, was The Leviathan, who would rule above the law. Now, according to the Vedic conception, is the king, or head of state, above the law?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. The king is also under the law. As we understand it from Bhagavad-gītā, Śrī Kṛṣṇa imparted His laws to the sun god. Since the sun god followed these laws, he is, compared to a common man, a supremely elevated being. The king is supposed to be the representative of God in the state, and the king's perfection lies in following the laws of Kṛṣṇa. If the king follows the order of Kṛṣṇa, the king's orders are final. In Bhagavad-gītā (4.1-2), Kṛṣṇa says that He originally imparted the laws of Bhagavad-gītā to the sun god, Vivasvān, who imparted them to Manu, the father of man, who in turn imparted them to Ikṣvāku, and in this way Bhagavad-gītā was received via disciplic succession and imparted to the rājarṣis, the saintly kings. If the king rules according to Bhagavad-gītā, he cannot be subjected to any other law. If the king follows the laws given by God, he is above mundane laws and conventions.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Hobbes compares man to a machine ultimately made by God, but he does not consider this machine to be controlled directly by God but by The Leviathan, the king or ruler.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. God is situated in everyone's heart, and every moment He is witnessing the actions of the soul. He knows what the soul desires, and He sees how the soul is manipulating the machine of the body. This is clearly explained in Bhagavad-gītā:

"The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy." (Bg. 18.61) If a person wants to enjoy this material world as a human being, God gives him the opportunity to become a human being, and if he wants to enjoy it as a dog, God gives him the body of a dog. This is all God's mercy. As long as the individual living entity wants to enjoy this material world, God gives all facility through a particular body. The body itself is material and is supplied by prakṛti, material nature. The machine is composed of material ingredients supplied by prakṛti, which follows the orders of Kṛṣṇa, and it is given for the enjoyment of the living entity. The living entity, or jīva, sits in that machine and travels, just as a person travels in a car. He receives a particular machine in some species on some planet. There are innumerable planets, and over eight million different species. Due to his contact with material nature, the living entity desires so many things, and God is so merciful that He supplies all facilities. At the same time, God is a friend to everyone, and when the jīva is prepared to understand ultimate happiness from God, God says, "Give up all your nonsensical plans and surrender unto Me." This is the living entity's perfection, and if he does not come to this perfect stage, he will constantly desire so many things. God will then supply an unlimited number of machines to go here and there, and up and down, within this universe. Either you go up, or you come down. When you come down, you enter the lower species, and when you go up, you enter the higher species. These include the demigods like Lord Indra and Lord Brahmā. There are different types of life, and some endure millions of years, while others endure only a few moments. In any case, every opportunity is given by the Supreme Lord because He is the supreme controller. Man proposes, and God disposes. As long as we continue to propose this and that, we'll never be happy, but when we agree to comply with God's plans, we will attain happiness.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Hobbes would say that since warfare is perpetual, and the struggle for existence goes on and on, the Leviathan is necessary. It is the fear of death that drives men together into a social contract, and it is the Leviathan who places everything under a common power and authority. This Leviathan is like God's representative or lieutenant, who has sovereignty under God.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the perfection of monarchy. Therefore the king is called nṛpadeva, or naradeva, God in human form.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Hobbes, the Leviathan must be sufficiently strong to enforce the social contract, the law. It is he who can punish anyone who does not live up to his end of the bargain. In this way, society and peace will be preserved.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But who is the right man? Since men are always defective, how is this possible? This means that we have to accept a man or an authority who is infallible, who is beyond suspicion.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Yes, and therefore Hobbes says that such a man must be something like a mortal god. If such a mortal god cannot be found, a government has to be instituted.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Such a man has to be the direct representative of God. He not only has to understand what is written in the scriptures; he has to follow the instructions as well. This is the exalted position of the bona fide spiritual master.

"The spiritual master is to be honored as much as the Supreme Lord, because he is the most confidential servitor of the Lord. This is acknowledged in all revealed scriptures and followed by all authorities. Therefore I offer my respectful obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master, who is a bona fide representative of Śrī Hari [Kṛṣṇa]." (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7) The spiritual master, or guru, is the direct representative of Kṛṣṇa because he is the most confidential servant of Kṛṣṇa. Therefore his position is as good as Kṛṣṇa's. He renders the most confidential service by trying to bring everyone to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Unless we come to that position, we will never be happy. Hobbes says that we have to find some sort of mortal god, but such a person must be one who actually knows God. We have to understand the qualifications of the bona fide guru from the Vedas. Then we have to approach the guru submissively. The guru is expert in transcendental Vedic knowledge, and he has fully given himself to Kṛṣṇa. He is no longer disturbed by anything material. He is full in Brahman realization, and he is free from all material contamination. These are some of the preliminary qualifications of a godly man, but since Hobbes did not know these qualifications, he could never find such a man. Even when Kṛṣṇa Himself was present, not everyone could understand that He was the Supreme Personality of Godhead. How will we be able to find the godly man unless we know what is God and what is a godly man? In order to find this out, we have to approach Bhagavad-gītā; otherwise our knowledge will remain imperfect.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In Hobbes's case, a godly man is only necessary insofar as he is required to maintain peace.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But since godly men cannot be found, peace is maintained for a while, and then again there is disturbance. Social contracts can never be absolute because things are always changing. A certain social condition may prevail for a while, but in fifty years it will be totally different. How can we make a social contract that will never change? It is not possible in the material world. In the Vaikuṇṭha-loka, the spiritual sky, the social condition never changes. It is eternal. The inhabitants there are pleased to be with Kṛṣṇa and dance, eat, play, and live with Him. That condition is eternal, nitya-siddha. Kṛṣṇa is always there, and He is always tending surabhi cows. He is always playing on His flute, and He is always dancing with His friends, the gopīs. Our business should be to enter into that eternal play, and that is the process of Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Hobbes claims that the Leviathan could not only be an individual but also a group of individuals.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, a group of individuals can run the government provided they are devotees. But if this group is composed of rogues and rascals, it cannot represent God. Representatives of God abide by the laws of God.

"Real religious principles are enacted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Although fully situated in the mode of goodness, even the great ṛṣis who occupy the topmost planets cannot ascertain the real religious principles, nor can the demigods, or the leaders of Siddhaloka, to say nothing of the asuras, ordinary human beings, Vidyādharas and Cāraṇas." (Bhāg. 6.3.19) Actual religion, or law, consists of what God Himself says. If we manufacture our own laws, without referring to God's program, we will ultimately fail.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In Leviathan, Hobbes writes: "Some men have pretended for their disobedience to their sovereign a new covenant, made not with men but with God, and this also is unjust; for there is no covenant with God but by mediation of somebody that represents God's person, which none does but God's lieutenent, who has this sovereignty under God." But might not this argument of divine right be used by a tyrant to discourage his subjects from rebelling? What guidelines are there to assure against this?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Everything depends on the king's accepting the absolute instructions of God. In the Vedic civilization, the king absolutely followed the regulations given by God. The king's activities were confirmed by saintly persons, sages, and then they were carried out. It was not that the king acted whimsically. There was always an advisory board composed of saintly persons, who knew the Vedas very well. The sages used to guide the monarch, and therefore the monarch was the absolute governing body. The ministers helped, but the king was educated by God's direct instructions. For instance, Kṛṣṇa gave direct instructions to the sun god (Bg. 4.1). According to Vedic tradition, there are two kṣatriya (administrative) families: one coming from the sun god (sūrya-vaṁśa), and one coming from the moon god (candra-vaṁśa). Sūrya, the sun god, is the original kṣatriya, and from him came Vaivasvata Manu. This is the age of Vaivasvata Manu, and from him came his son Ikṣvāku. Kṛṣṇa's instructions are explicitly given in Bhagavad-gītā, and if governments throughout the world take them up, they will attain perfection. Then there will be no disturbances, and there will be peace and happiness. That will make a perfect world. Kṛṣṇa has given instructions in all fields of activity, but people are so foolish due to their demoniac tendencies that they attempt to manufacture their own standards. If the heads of state are degraded either individually or collectively, how can there be good government?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Hobbes contends that in the natural state, man is like all other animals. Might makes right, and the strongest always prevail. Therefore it is necessary that man form a social contract and volunteer to restrict natural liberties for the sake of self-preservation.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is not natural liberty but ghostly liberty. There are many haunted people, and in their unnatural condition they are falsely thinking, "I am God." The natural condition is to think, "I am God's servant." Any condition devoid of Kṛṣṇa consciousness is unnatural. Kṛṣṇa is the supreme, and I am His subordinate. My business is to render service unto Him. This is the natural position.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Yet when men group together in a society to preserve themselves, they make a contract to the effect that they will not kill one another.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Why not a group of asses? What is their utility? Do you mean to say that because a group of asses congregate that some good will come of it? These rogues are always making contracts after a big war. After World War I, they made a contract through the League of Nations, and that failed. Then they had a Second World War, and they formed the United Nations and made more contracts. Eventually that will all be dissolved again. These contracts and compromises may serve some purposes for the time being, but ultimately they are useless.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Men in society volunteer, "I will not kill you or steal your property if you will not kill me or steal my property."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the thieves' contract. But, after all, if you remain a thief, what is the improvement? Thieves may steal some valuable things, and afterwards they congregate and say, "Let's divide the property honestly." Thieves are all dishonest, although they talk of honesty among themselves. Originally, everyone immigrated to America, and the whole land was stolen from the Indians. Now the thieves have formed a government and will not allow outsiders in without visas and passports and so many things. This is the kind of morality that is going on.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Hobbes's social contract was something like the converse of the Golden Rule: "Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That was also Buddha's theory. Lord Buddha pointed out that if someone hurts us, we feel pain. Why, therefore, should we hurt others? Of course, third and fourth-class men have to be taught in this way. But in Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna, "Kill them!" Does this mean that Kṛṣṇa's position is reduced? It is a question of the intelligence of the men involved.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Well, Hobbes is trying to determine how society can live peacefully.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, people have tried many times but have always failed. There cannot be any peace in this material world. Kṛṣṇa says plainly:

"From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again." (Bg. 8.16) Since this is a place of misery, how can we establish peace here? We cannot. The material universe is structured in such a way that peace is not possible. As Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura says: saṁsāra-dāvānala-līḍha-loka (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 1). This material world is exactly like a blazing forest fire. No one wants fire in a forest, but it takes place naturally. No one wants to fight, but fighting takes place. How can you check it simply by making a contract? We are thinking that the material world is a nice place to live, but this is like a man thinking that stool is nice because it has been dried in the sun. If the stool is soft, it is not so good. But in either case, it is stool. Padaṁ padaṁ yad vipadāṁ na teṣām (Bhāg. 10.14.58). In this world, there is danger at every step. Throughout history, people have tried to make contracts for peace, but it is not possible. One may refuse to submit to Kṛṣṇa, but nature will not allow this. If we do not submit to Kṛṣṇa, nature will punish us so that we will finally be obliged to submit to Him. That is nature's law. If We voluntarily submit to Kṛṣṇa, that is for our benefit, but if we do not, nature's laws are so stringent that they will always give us trouble, and at the end we will be obliged to agree: vāsudevah sarvaṁ iti. "Vāsudeva, Kṛṣṇa, is everything." (Bg. 7.19) If, after many births of struggle, we have to come to this point, why waste our time? Why not surrender to Kṛṣṇa immediately? Otherwise, we will go on suffering according to nature's law.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Hobbes is called a utilitarian because he accepts a thing only if it's pragmatic or useful.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is relative. A child is satisfied if you give him five rupees, but if you give his father five rupees, the man will think, "What is the use of this?" So the utility of five rupees is relative. Hobbes's conception of utility is not the same as Kṛṣṇa's conception. Arjuna was thinking that he was speaking like a very learned man, but immediately Kṛṣṇa told him that he was not (Bg. 2.11). All this is relative. The hog thinks that he is in a comfortable position and is eating very nicely, but he is eating stool and living in garbage. Crows believe one thing, and swans believe another. An imperfect man like Hobbes may believe one thing to be pragmatic, but one who is perfect may consider something totally different to be pragmatic.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Hobbes accepted religion only as a practical instrument. He says that it doesn't have any real value as a science but that it may be used by the state to pacify the people or to keep them confused.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This means that he does not know what religion is. Of course, some people have made religion into a certain type of faith, but actually religion means one's inherent characteristic. Religion is to the living entity what sweetness is to sugar. It is an inherent characteristic that cannot be separated. Every living entity is rendering service to someone. Everyone is subordinate to someone else, or to his senses. It is the characteristic of the living entity to be subordinate and to render service. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says, "Surrender unto Me." (Bg. 18.66) That is our first business, but we are too busy trying to become Kṛṣṇa. Therefore we say, "I am God," or, "You are God," or, "We are all God." The living entity is not the Supreme God, but he is playing that way. When a man is haunted by ghosts, he says many nonsensical things. Similarly, when the living entity is under the clutches of the material energy, he speaks in such a way.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: What about this idea of utility? What do you think of something being accepted only as long as it is useful?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is our foolishness that we accept something temporarily useful. Our real desire is to have eternal life. We want something that is eternally useful, but in the material world we are always being frustrated. We want to live here permanently, but nature will not allow this. Even if there is no disturbance in the form of war, we will still not be allowed to remain.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: A utilitarian would say that a thing should be used only insofar as it is required for some time. Then something else can be used, and in this way we can adjust things indefinitely.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But another point is that no one wants anything to change. Why? People want permanence because they are seeking their eternal, spiritual nature.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Hobbes might say that although we may be seeking something eternal, we may employ temporary things just as long as they are useful.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: First of all, we must know what our eternal life is; then we can try to use everything favorable to further that end. Kṛṣṇa is the ultimate goal, and whatever is favorable in helping us toward Him should be accepted. That is real utilitarianism. For instance, Arjuna said, "What should I do? Kill or not kill? Kṛṣṇa wants me to kill. All right, I'll kill." This is utilitarianism.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Hobbes, the goal is a peaceful society.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is not possible. The goal should be the advancement of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Then peace will follow automatically.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: His utilitarianism means the acceptance of whatever is favorable for the preservation of society.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: In any case, society cannot be preserved. So many societies have come and gone. British society. Roman society. Greek society. Only Kṛṣṇa's society is eternal. Knowing this is intelligence. Nitya-līlā-praviṣṭa. "Now he has entered the eternal society of Kṛṣṇa." This is what we say when our guru passes away. We are accepting Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme and glorifying Him here on earth. This same process will go on there in the spiritual sky, in Kṛṣṇa's abode. However, there it will take place in a perfect way. Here we are just practicing.