William James (1842-1910)

Hayagrīva dāsa: In his most famous book, The Varieties of Religious Experience, James writes: "Were we to limit our view to it, we should have to define religion as an external art, the art of winning the favor of God....The relation goes direct from heart to heart, from soul to soul, between man and his maker."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: There are varieties of living beings living everywhere from the water up to the higher planetary systems. In fact, Padma Purāṇa informs us that there are 8,400,000 species: plants, creepers, trees, insects, aquatics, birds, animals, and so forth. God is concerned with all of them, because they are all part and parcel of God. In one word, God is the Father and maintainer of all living entities. He has two subordinate energies—material and spiritual. In the material world, material nature is the mother, God is the Father, and the various living entities are all sons maintained by the Supreme Father. This is the basis of universal brotherhood. It is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā (sarva-yoniṣu, Bg. 14.4) that material nature is the mother and that Kṛṣṇa is the seed-giving father. If we understand these relationships, we will attain peace and advanced knowledge.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning the founding of religions, James writes: "The founders of every church owed their power originally to the fact of their direct personal communion with the divine. Not only the superhuman founders, the Christ, the Buddha, Mohammed, but all the originators of Christian sects have been in this case;—so personal religion should seem the primordial thing, even to those who continue to esteem it incomplete."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, the Supreme Father is a person. We have no experience of a father being anything but a person. Just as in the material world, all fathers are persons, the ultimate Father is also a person. The personal conception of God is there in every religion: Christian, Mohammedan, and Vedic. In the Vedic religion, it is stated, oṁ tad viṣṇoḥ paramaṁ padam. Those who are spiritually advanced know that the Supreme Father is Lord Viṣṇu. Lord Viṣṇu and Kṛṣṇa are the same. Impersonal realization is imperfect and incomplete, whereas Bhagāvan, the personal God, is the ultimate end of realization. Our first business is to know God and our relationship with Him. Then we can act accordingly to perfect our lives. This is the process of God realization.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James considered religion to be the source of philosophy. He writes: "Since the relation (of man to God) may be either moral, physical, or ritual, it is evident that out of religion in the sense in which we take it, theologies, philosophies, and ecclesiastical organizations may secondarily grow."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Philosophy means advancing knowledge, and we are perfecting our knowledge when we begin our understanding of God. Due to foolishness, we sometimes deride God's existence. Sometimes we concoct some imaginary idea, and sometimes we have impersonal and pantheistic conceptions. Philosophy is the search for God, but due to our imperfection, we have different opinions and conceptions of Him. God is a person, and when we know God, talk with Him, see Him, feel His presence, and play with Him, we have attained the highest platform of God realization. We then come to realize that God is great and that we are small and always subordinate. Carrying out God's orders is religion, and the more we realize this, the more we perfect our religion.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: James noted that there are two fundamental philosophical temperaments. One is called tender-mindedness, and this is typified by the rationalist, the idealist, the optimist, the religionist, and the dogmatist. Tough-mindedness is typified by the empiricist, the materialist, the pessimist, the atheist, the fatalist, and the skeptic.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This depends upon our education, whether we become tender or tough-minded. In either case, we propose that originally the soul is good. Tenderness and toughness are developed later on. They are not the standard. When you come to the platform of the soul, everything is good. From Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that every living entity is part and parcel of God, and God is good. Arjuna accepts Kṛṣṇa as paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ (Bg. 10.12). The word pavitra means "pure." Because we are part of God, we are pure. Impurities are acquired due to contamination in this material world. We may be either tender or tough-minded: this is due to our impurity acquired in this material world. We don't credit a person either way, being tender or tough. A man suffering from a headache thinks that it is better to be suffering from indigestion instead, and vice versa. Because the pure soul is affected by the three guṇas—sattva, rajas, and tamas—he is suffering. He must be relieved from all suffering. From the material point of view, one may be a brāhmaṇa contaminated by sattva-guṇa, or a śūdra contaminated by tamo-guṇa or rajo-guṇa, but from the spiritual platform, both are contaminated by material nature. Because of this, both are suffering. It is explained in Bhagavad-gītā that the brāhmaṇa thinks, "Oh, I am so pure and learned. I am so this, I am so that." This is called contamination by sattva-guṇa. He is not thinking that he is part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. As long as we are affected by these material modes of nature, our position is the same.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: James called himself a radical empiricist. He did not see the universe as a neat set of relationships because direct experience informs us that facts are mosaic and discontinuous in their design. Thus for him the universe is a composition of facts which do not form a perfect unity.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Because he is seeing the universe with imperfect eyes, it appears imperfect. Actually, everything is complete. According to the first verse of Īśopaniṣad:

"The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance." (Īśopaniṣad, Invocation) God is perfect, and whatever is created by God is perfect. James thinks that it is imperfect because he cannot see it through the eyes of God.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For James, the ultimate unification of the universe is never fully attained. He writes: "The universe continually grows in quantity by new experiences that graft themselves upon the older mass; but these very new experiences often help the mass to a more consolidated form."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This conception results from a poor fund of knowledge. The universe is complete, but man alone is not complete. Because the universe is created by a perfect being, it is also perfect. It is not that the universe is evolving. It has been perfect since its creation. Since our knowledge is imperfect, we think that it is evolving.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Is this because my observations of the universe are evolving toward a unity?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Well, this is James's criterion for truth: that which I perceive is true. Truth is what one can experience.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But what you can perceive may also be wrong because you are not perfect. You may think an imperfect thing perfect, or a perfect thing imperfect. In the śāstras it is stated that because human beings are controlled by the mode of passion, they love to work very hard, and thus they think that hard work is happiness. At the same time, the śāstras point out that hard work for sense gratification is also being carried on by hogs and dogs. Animals are also working hard for some remuneration, for food, or sense enjoyment. This is called māyā, illusion.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: James felt that truth is more than just an agreement of idea with reality. It also has practical significance. What is practical is true.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, the truth must be practical. From the verses of Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī, we can understand that one who receives but the slightest merciful glance of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu considers Brahmān and liberation to be hellish. Kaivalyaṁ narakāyate. Such a person also considers the heavenly planets to be mere phantasmagoria, and the yoga-siddhis, the yoga potencies, to be unimportant. Materialists suffer in this material condition, but a devotee is always satisfied. Although others are full of anxiety, a devotee sees everything as pleasing. All of this is possible by a fragment of the merciful glance of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. This is practical. As soon as we become Kṛṣṇa conscious, all this takes place.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For James, truth means experience.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is also our proposal. Bhaktiḥ pareśānubhavo viraktir anyatra caiṣa (Bhāg. 11.2.42). One who is advanced in bhakti is no longer interested in material enjoyment. Unless we come to detest material things, it is to be understood that we are not making progress. When a hungry man eats, he feels satisfied, and his body gains strength. Similarly, when we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we feel spiritually strong and lose our taste for material enjoyment.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: James felt that truths can be created or developed in the same way as wealth or health.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Health may be created, but truth cannot. It is not that truth is developing; rather, you are gradually progressing towards truth. It is not that the sun is developing, but as the clouds disappear, your ability to see the sun develops. The sun is fixed in its position.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Well, for James, truth is a system of verification. That is, ideas become true or are made true through our experience of them.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, as you make progress, truth is revealed. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says that as we surrender unto Him, He reveals Himself proportionately (Bg. 4.11).

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But if an idea works, and is applied to concrete facts of experience, we can accept it as a true idea. As our experiences develop, our life progresses. If an idea works in my experience, it becomes true for me.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is our process. In the beginning, it is through faith that we enter into the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. In the beginning, we have no practical experience of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. We may see that people who are Kṛṣṇa conscious appear to have very bright faces, and our interest may increase on seeing this. Thus we first come with a little faith and interest, and as we associate with the devotees, our interest increases.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: So our experiences prove that the ideas are true.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, otherwise how can European and American boys be satisfied with so few material possessions? They are realizing in practice that a simple life is better than an artificial one.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But what is practical for one person may not be for another. What is the criterion?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: There are relative truths, and there is the Absolute Truth. Some people are interested in one, and some in the other. We may accept some temporary means to attain a goal; however, the ultimate goal is to please Kṛṣṇa, and for this end we may adopt some temporary, relative means.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: According to James, one who believes has a greater chance to discover the truth than one who doubts.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is so.

"But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness. For the doubting soul, there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next." (Bg. 4.40) Those who are doubters are finished. Is James a believer or a doubter?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: He was a believer, a New England Protestant. He says that one who disbelieves faces the risk of losing any chance of discovering the truth.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is so. This means that we accept the fact that God is truth and that He is existing. He believes that we have a better chance to get at the truth by believing in God, and God is truth; therefore God is existing. If you believe that you can become warm by getting next to fire, you are asserting the existence of fire. Unless there is a fire, how can there be warmth? So the belief itself is the proof.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For James, the mind must survive the body, since the mind is not dependent on the body for its existence.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is a fact. When the gross body is finished, the subtle body consisting of the mind, intelligence, and ego remains. These guide us to another gross body. They are like the aroma coming from a rose. We can see the rose, but we cannot see the aroma. Still, the aroma is being scattered by the air. Similarly, when the spirit soul gives up the gross body, it is carried by the mind, intelligence, and ego. According to our desire, that subtle body enters another gross body.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: If the mind and intelligence are not material, do they not die?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: To die means to disappear. The mind disappears when you are liberated.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then I carry my mind with me throughout all my lifetimes?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, as long as you are not liberated.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Is this the same mind I have now and have always had?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, but the body, which is material and gross, changes. The subtle material body—mind, intelligence, and false ego—accompanies us until we are liberated.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning nondevotional religions, James gives the following estimation of impersonalism and Buddhism: "There are systems of thought which the world usually calls religious, and yet do not positively assume a God. Buddhism is in this case. Popularly, of course, the Buddha himself stands in place of a God; but in strictness the Buddhistic system is atheistic."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, and that is also the description given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Lord Buddha appeared at a time when people were atheistic and accustomed to killing many animals in sacrificial offerings. Lord Buddha was very much aggrieved to see poor animals being killed unnecessarily; therefore he preached a religion of nonviolence. Because the people were atheists, Lord Buddha, in order to bring them under his control, agreed with them and said, "Yes, there is no God, but listen to me." This is a kind of transcendental cheating. In the beginning he said there is no God, but he is God Himself. In this way, people accepted his words and instructions. Animal killers cannot understand God and religion, although they may have some vague idea. Lord Buddha wanted to stop their sinful activities and reestablish a system of religion dedicated to nonviolence. Therefore he rejected the Vedas, which allow restricted animal sacrifice.

Hayagrīva dāsa: For James, religion means surrender and total involvement. He writes: "In the religious life....surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary....It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our life can so successfully fulfill."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, society without religion is animalistic. We have already defined religion as understanding, loving, and obeying God. These principles are personally taught by God Himself in Bhagavad-gītā:

"Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend." (Bg. 18.65) We may think of God either as a personal God or a localized or all-pervading God, but in any case, God has form. It is easier to think of the form of the Lord. Attempting to meditate on the impersonal aspect is very troublesome (Bg. 12.5). Although Kṛṣṇa has different incarnations and forms, He is the Supreme; therefore we meditate upon Him. In our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we can think of Kṛṣṇa easily because His form, the Deity, is in the temple. We also have the perfect instructions of Bhagavad-gītā. God gives perfect instructions in everything: religion, politics, sociology, philosophy, science, physics, and history. Those who are fortunate will see the actual form of God according to His instructions, and perfect their lives. This is what is wanted.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James sees happiness as an integral part of religion.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: When you know and follow God, you become happy.

"One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me." (Bg. 18.54) As soon as we are God realized, we transcend duality and all distress, and become immediately happy. There is no longer hankering and lamentation. We no longer distinguish between men and nations. We see everyone within the material world—whether man, animal, or a tree—as a living entity, a part and parcel of God. In this way, we have a clear understanding and a perfect life.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In The Varieties of Religious Experience, James further writes: "If a creed makes a man feel happy, he almost inevitably adopts it. Such a belief ought to be true; therefore it is true—such rightly or wrongly, is one of the immediate inferences of the religious logic used by ordinary men."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, if you have a clear conception of God, and have decided to obey Him and love Him, you will be happy. This is the process utilized by this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. We have no other business than obeying the orders of God. God has told us to preach this confidential philosophy of Bhagavad-gītā everywhere. Since we are trying to love God and obey His orders, we are eager to spread this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Otherwise, it is Kṛṣṇa's business. Why should we bother about Him? We are attempting to spread this movement because we love Kṛṣṇa, and He is happy that His message is being spread throughout the world. That is our happiness also. Since we are serving God without a doubt, we also feel happiness. This is reciprocation with God. This is religion. Religion is not sentiment, but actual realization of God, the actual carrying out of His orders. Our progressive life is secure if we are happy when God is happy.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James sees the lover of God as being a morally free person. He writes: "St. Augustine's maxim, 'If you but love God, you may do as you incline—' is morally one of the profoundest of observations, yet it is pregnant, for such persons, with passports beyond the bounds of conventional morality."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very nicely put. If God is satisfied with our action, our action is moral. Conventional morality, which says, "This is good, and this is bad," is a mental concoction. Morality refers to the activities which satisfy God. If our action dissatisfies God, it is immoral. We therefore sing every day, yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādo (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8). The orders of God are carried out by the representative of God, the spiritual master. When we have no direct connection with God, the spiritual master serves as a transparent intermediary between God and ourselves. In the perfectional stage, of course, we can talk with God directly, but in the beginning, the neophyte must receive instructions from the spiritual master who is directly connected with God. If we satisfy the spiritual master, we have satisfied God, and this is our happiness.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning evil, James writes: "Evil is a disease; and worry over disease is itself an additional form of disease, which only adds to the original complaint....The best repentence is to up and act for righteousness, and forget that you ever had relations with sin."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: When you are in a diseased condition, your suffering increases. When no one attempts to extinguish a fire, it increases. Debts unpaid will compound interests. Therefore diseases, fire, and debts should not be left unattended. They should be completely extinguished. We must know that our suffering is due to our disobedience to the orders of God, to our being irreligious. We have a relationship with God, but because we are now covered by material contamination, we are ignorant of it. We are thinking of ourselves as independent, and that is our foolishness. The demoniac and atheistic incorrectly think themselves independent of the orders of God; therefore they are forced to accept what they do not want: the punishments of birth, old age, disease, and death. Despite this punishment, the atheists still deny God's existence. God is there, and His orders are there. We should accept the instructions of a bona fide spiritual master, the representative of God, and execute them. Then we become happy and overcome the results of evil.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Like Mill and others, James felt that due to the existence of evil in the universe, God is not unlimited.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: He did not know that evil does not exist independent of God. According to the śāstras, evil is the back side of God. Back side or front side, God is God. God is absolute. It is not that I can neglect or deny my back. I cannot say, "Beat me on my back side." The back is as important as the front. Those who are sinful cannot stand the front of God. Therefore Kṛṣṇa says:

"Persons who have acted piously in previous lives and in this life, whose sinful actions are completely eradicated, and who are freed from the duality of delusion, engage themselves in My service with determination." (Bg. 7.28) Unless we are completely uncontaminated, we cannot come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Once we surrender unto Kṛṣṇa and accept His orders, Kṛṣṇa immediately relieves us from all sinful reactions.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: James defines the world as the "stuff of pure experience," and says that experience is sometimes manifest as mind, and sometimes as matter.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is made up of experience, but whose experience? It is not due to your experience that these flowers are here. You have not created these flowers. He speaks of pure experience, but he does not know that it is Kṛṣṇa's experience.

"He does not possess bodily form like that of an ordinary living entity. There is no difference between His body and His soul. He is absolute. All His senses are transcendental. Any one of His senses can perform the action of any other sense. Therefore, no one is greater than Him or equal to Him. His potencies are multifarious, and thus His deeds are automatically performed as a natural sequence." (Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad 6.7-8) According to the Vedas, the Supreme is equipped with different kinds of energies, and those energies can be experienced. This universe and everything within the cosmic manifestation is designed by the Supreme. Everything is a result of His multi-energies. In order for a man to create a flower on canvas, he must be thoroughly experienced in his art, but we can see that the multi-energies of Kṛṣṇa are working so nicely that flowers appear automatically.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James divides religion into two basic types. One he calls the "sky-blue optimistic gospel," and the other "pessimistic" in its recognition of the futility and miseries of materialistic life. He felt that the completest religions take a pessimistic view of material existence, and offer liberation from it.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, only an animal is not pessimistic about life in this material world. A man is capable of knowing the threefold sufferings of material life. There are sufferings of the mind and body, sufferings offered by other living entities, and sufferings forced upon us by natural catastrophes and the laws of nature. The world is full of suffering, but under the spell of māyā, illusion, we think we are progressing. Ultimately, whatever we do, death is there to annihilate the results. Under these circumstances, there is no happiness within this material world. We may make all arrangements for happiness, but at any moment, death may capture us. So what happiness can we have here? Therefore an intelligent man is always pessimistic about material life. He knows that he will not be allowed to be happy here. As we further advance, we understand the orders of Kṛṣṇa: sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja. "Abandon all religions and just surrender unto Me." (Bg. 18.66) We must surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and after surrendering and understanding Him fully, we can go to the world that is full of bliss, knowledge, and eternal life. Unless we take a pessimistic view of this material world, we will remain attached to it, and the repetition of birth and death will ensue. In this world, everyone is attempting to live permanently, but nature does not allow this. People work very hard, and sometimes get good results, bad results, or frustration. So where is happiness? Happiness is understanding God, acting according to His advice, and returning home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James believes that there is a certain composite picture of universal saintliness, which is the same in all religions, and of which the features can be easily traced. He has noted that holymen possess: "One, a feeling of being in a wider life than that of this world's selfish little interest; and a conviction...of the existence of an Ideal Power."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that feeling is there because the greatness of God is experienced. God is great in six opulences: wealth, strength, fame, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Secondly, holymen possess "a sense of the friendly continuity of the Ideal Power with our own life, in a willing self-surrender to its control."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, there is a friendly continuity. There are five basic relationships. In the first, the relationship is between master and servant, then friend to friend, son to father, father to son, and beloved to beloved. All of these are friendly relationships, and every living entity has a natural instinct to accept any one of them. Thus our friendly relationships with God can be chosen. Someone may like to relate to Him as a servant, a friend, a father, a son, or a conjugal lover. When we are free from material contamination, our particular relationship is revived, and we understand ourselves as eternal parts and parcels of God.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Thirdly, the holyman experiences "an immense elation and freedom, as the outlines of the confining selfhood melt down."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, material selfishness is māyā. Those who are enchanted by the spell of māyā do not know that their real self-interest is in knowing their relationship with God. Our first duty is to have a complete idea of God and our relationship with Him. According to the Vedic process, whether we take up the haṭha-yoga, jñāna-yoga, or bhakti-yoga system, the purpose is realization of God. A perfect human being knows that God is supplying his necessities and that he need not try to improve his economic condition. A sādhu, or holyman, is not interested in improving his material condition, but his spiritual condition.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Lastly, James speaks of the holyman experiencing "a shifting of the emotional center toward loving and harmonious affections, toward 'yes' and away from 'no' where the claims of the non-ego are concerned."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, God is always asking us to obey His orders, and as soon as we do so, as soon as we agree with Him, we become liberated. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam describes liberation as giving up everything except devotional life.

"Devotees solely engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, never fear any condition of life. For them, the heavenly planets, liberation, and the hellish planets are all the same, because such devotees are interested only in the service of the Lord." (Bhāg. 6.17.28) Life is meant for rendering devotional service to the Lord, and as soon as we understand this and commit ourselves to the rendering of such service, we are liberated. That is called mukti.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James believes that the existence of many religions in the world is not regrettable because different types of men necessitate different types of religion. "Some may really be the better for a religion of consolation and reassurance," he writes, "whilst others are better for one of terror and reproof...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: I have said that religion means accepting God as the Supreme Father, material nature as the mother, and all living entities as sons of God. The father is the maintainer, and all his sons have the right to live at his expense. Every living being should be satisfied with his condition, which is given by God. No one should encroach upon the rights of others, including the rights of animals to live peacefully. According to Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura, a happy life means living in the family of Kṛṣṇa without violating the rules and regulations. In a family, the sons can live very happily by obeying their father. So there may be many types of religion, but awareness of this basic relationship with God and His creation should be there.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Since James was acquainted only with the impersonalist Vedānta school of Hinduism, he wrote of samādhi instead of devotional service. "When a man comes out of samādhi" he writes, "...he remains 'enlightened, a sage, a prophet, a saint, his whole character changed, his life changed, illumined."'

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Samādhi means ecstasy, and if we are in God consciousness, we are in samādhi. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa speaks of the yogī in samādhi:

"And of all yogīs, he who always abides in Me with great faith, worshiping Me in transcendental loving service, is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all." (Bg. 6.47) In samādhi, the mind is always absorbed in God. If we continue in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we are in samādhi.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James describes samādhi to be a union in which the individual has lost contact with the external world.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes.

Hayagrīva dāsa: And he therefore concludes that "Mystical states cannot be sustained for long. Except in rare instances, half an hour, or at most an hour or two, seems to be the limit beyond which they fade into the light of common day. Often, when faded, their quality can but imperfectly be reproduced in memory; but when they recur, it is recognized; and from one recurrence to another it is susceptible of continuous development in what is felt as inner richness and importance."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that richness is perfected when we think of Kṛṣṇa constantly. That is recommended in the Sixth Chapter of Bhagavad-gītā, which I quoted previously. Consequently, in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we are devoted to thinking of Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours daily. When we do not fall down from the yoga principle, we experience samādhi.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James himself claims to have experienced such a state momentarily, under the influence of ether. And today, people claim to induce mystical states through psychedelic drugs.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: These are artificial means, and they cannot be sustained. It is better to engage in the bona fide devotional process—śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥsmaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam (Bhāg. 7.5.23)—always hearing about Kṛṣṇa, talking about Him, remembering Him, serving Him in the temple, distributing His literatures, and so on. There are many services we can render in order to be fully absorbed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness.

Hayagrīva dāsa: After analyzing many different religious experiences, James arrives at five basic conclusions. One: "That the visible world is part of a more spiritual universe from which it draws its chief significance."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, the material universe is existing on the spiritual effulgence of the Lord, just as all the planets are resting upon the sunshine. Everything rests on the spiritual effulgence of the Lord, but when we forget the Lord, we call this the material world. Actually, the material world is in the spiritual world, but forgetfulness of God is material. When we revive our dormant God consciousness, the material world no longer exists. For a person truly advanced in God consciousness, there is nothing material. Everything is spiritual.

Hayagrīva dāsa: You are anticipating James's second conclusion, which is: "Union or harmonious relation with that higher universe is our true end."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is so. When we no longer forget our eternal relationship with God, nothing is material.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Third, prayer, or communion with God, "is a process wherein work is really done, and spiritual energy flows in and produces effects, psychological or material, within the phenomenal world." And, fourth, religion produces "a new zest which adds itself like a gift to life."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, realizing God's creation with awe, veneration, and appreciation constitutes one type of relationship called śānta-rasa. From there, we can progress to the point of dāsya-rasa, which involves serving God, and finally to the mādhurya-rasa, which includes accepting God as our most beloved object. The devotee may choose whichever relationship he likes; the result is the same. However, by comparative study, the sādhus have decided that the mādhurya-rasa, our relationship with God as lover and beloved, is the highest relationship.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Finally, religion produces "an assurance of safety and a temper of peace, and, in relation to others, a preponderance of loving affections."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is very nice. A devotee is always at peace because he is always confident that since he is sincerely serving Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa will save him from all danger. Prahlāda Mahārāja was always peaceful, although his demoniac father, Hiraṇyakaśipu, attempted to kill him in so many ways. God always protects His devotee, and therefore the pure devotee is not disturbed by any material condition. He has firm faith in God, and this is called surrender. Full surrender means accepting everything favorable to God consciousness and rejecting everything unfavorable. When we enter the family of God, we have firm faith and security under the protection of God.

Hayagrīva dāsa: James then concludes that "in opening ourselves to God's influence, our deepest destiny is fulfilled."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that fulfillment is what is wanted. God demands that we fully surrender unto Him, and when we do so, our lives are perfected.