Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844-1900)

Hayagrīva dāsa: Whereas Schopenhauer spoke of the blind will of the individual as being the basic propelling force that keeps us tied to material existence, to transmigration, Nietzsche spoke of der wille zur macht, "the will to power," which is a different type of will. This will is not so much a subjugating of others as a mastering of one's lower self. It is characterized by self-control and an interest in art and philosophy. Most people are envious of others, but it is the duty of the philosopher to transcend this envy by sheer willpower. In Nietzsche's words, the philosopher "shakes off with one shrug much vermin that would have buried itself deep in others." When the philosopher has rid himself of resentment and envy, he can even embrace his enemies with a kind of Christian love. An example of such a powerful man in action would be that of Socrates meeting his death with good cheer and courage.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is called spiritual power. Envy is a symptom of conditioned life. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, it is stated that the neophyte who is beginning to understand the Vedic literatures should not be envious. In this material world, everyone is envious. People are even envious of God and His instructions. Consequently, people do not like to accept Kṛṣṇa's instructions. Although Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead and is accepted as such by all ācāryas, there are men called mūḍhās who either reject Kṛṣṇa's instructions or try to eschew some contrary meaning from them. This envy is symptomatic of conditioned souls. Unless we are liberated from conditioned life, we will remain confused under the influence of the external material energy. Until we come to the spiritual platform, there is no possibility of escaping from envy and pride by so-called power. The transcendental stage is described in Bhagavad-gītā as brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (18.54). When we attain that stage, we can look at everyone with the same spiritual understanding.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche calls the man who possesses such spiritual power the Ubermensch, a word literally meaning "above man," and often translated as "the superman." The Ubermensch is totally self-possessed, fearless of death, simple, self-knowing, and self-reliant. He does not need any props, and he is so powerful that he can change the lives of others simply on contact. Neitzsche never referred to any historical person as the Ubermensch, and he did not consider himself such.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We accept the guru as the superman because he is worshipped like God. Yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 8). By the mercy of the superman, one can get in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also accepts this:

"According to their karma, all living entities are wandering throughout the entire universe. Some of them are being elevated to the upper planetary systems, and some are going down into the lower planetary systems. Out of many millions of wandering living entities, one who is very fortunate gets an opportunity to associate with a bona fide spiritual master by the grace of Kṛṣṇa. By the mercy of both Kṛṣṇa and the spiritual master, such a person receives the seed of the creeper of devotional service." (Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madh. 19.151) By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and the guru, or the superman, we receive information about spiritual life so that we can return home, back to Godhead. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu requested everyone to become gurus, or supermen. The superman distributes transcendental knowledge strictly according to the authorized version he has received from his superior. This is called paramparā, the disciplic succession. One superman delivers this supreme knowledge to another superman, and this knowledge was originally delivered by God Himself.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche concludes that all men want power. At the top of the hierarchy in the quest for power is the ascetic and the martyr. The Ubermensch would be one who has conquered his passions and attained all good qualifications. His actions are creative, and he does not envy others. He is constantly aware that death is always present, and he is so superior to others that he is almost like God in the world.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit, the Ubermensch or superman is called a svāmī, or gosvāmī. He is described by Rūpa Gosvāmī:

"A sober person who can tolerate the urge to speak, the mind's demands, the actions of anger, and the urges of the tongue, belly, and genitals, is qualified to make disciples all over the world." (Upadeśāmṛta 1) These forces that drive men are six in number: speech, the tongue, mind, anger, belly, and genitals. A gosvāmī can control these forces, especially the genitals, belly, and tongue, which are very hard to control. Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says: tā'ra madhye jihvā ati, lobhamoy sudurmati, tā'ke jetā kaṭhina saṁsāre. "Among the senses, the tongue is the most voracious and uncontrollable; it is very difficult to conquer the tongue in this world." (Gītāvalī, Prasāda-sevāya 1) The force of the tongue is very great, and for its gratification we create many artificial edibles. Nonsensical habits like smoking, drinking, and meat eating have entered society due to the urges of the tongue. There is no real need for these undesirable things. A person does not die because he cannot smoke, eat meat, or drink intoxicants. Rather, without these indulgences, he can elevate himself to the highest platform. Due to the urges of the tongue, people have become addicted to drinking, smoking, meat eating, and frivolous conversation. It is therefore said that one who can control the tongue can control the urges of the other senses also. One who can control all the senses, beginning with the tongue, is called a gosvāmī or svāmī, or, as Nietzsche would say, the Ubermensch. But this is not possible for an ordinary man.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche believed that everyone seeks power, but that the weak seek it vainly; instead of trying to conquer themselves, they attempt to conquer others, and this is the will to power misdirected or misinterpreted. For instance, in his will to power, Hitler sought to subjugate the world, but was ultimately unsuccessful, and he brought disaster upon himself and Germany. The Ubermensch, on the other hand, strives to overcome himself, and demands more of himself than others. In this striving for perfection, he transcends the ordinary man.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Politicians like Hitler are not able to control the force of anger. A king or politician has to use anger properly. Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura says that we should control our powers and apply them in the proper cases. We may become angry, but our anger must be controlled. We should utilize anger at the proper place and in the proper circumstances. Although a king may not be angry by nature, he has to display his anger toward a criminal. It is not good for a king to try to control his anger when a criminal act is performed; therefore Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura says that anger is controlled when it is properly used. Kāma-krodha-lobha-moha. Kāma refers to lust; krodha means anger; lobha means greed; and moha means illusion. These can all be properly utilized. For instance, kāma, which is great eagerness, or lusty desire, can be utilized in attaining the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. If we desire Kṛṣṇa, our strong desire is very laudable. Similarly, anger can be properly utilized. Although Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught that we should be very submissive, humbler than the grass and more tolerant than a tree, He became angry upon seeing Nityananda Prabhu hurt by Jagāi and Mādhāi. Everything can be properly utilized in the service of Kṛṣṇa, but not for personal aggrandizement. In the material world, everyone is certainly after power, but the real superman is not after power for himself. He himself is a mendicant, a sannyāsī, but he acquires power for the service of the Lord. For instance, I came to the U.S.A. not to acquire material power but to distribute Kṛṣṇa consciousness. By the grace of Kṛṣṇa, all facilities have been afforded, and now, from the material point of view, I have become somewhat powerful. But this is not for my personal sense gratification; it is all for the spreading of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The conclusion is that power for Kṛṣṇa's service is very valuable, and power for our own sense gratification is to be condemned.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche was not very clear about the utilization of power, but he concluded that power results from self-control. According to him, no one has ever attained the level of the superman.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: You cannot do anything without power. Power is required for Kṛṣṇa's service, not for sense gratification. One who can act according to this principle is a superman. Generally, people use power for their own sense gratification, and therefore it is not easy to find anyone on the level of the superman.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche claims that because the Ubermensch subjugates his own passions, he is beyond good and evil and not subject to mundane dualities.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, because the superman acts on behalf of God, he is transcendental. At the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna was thinking like an ordinary person in his reluctance to kill his kinsmen. From the material point of view, nonviolence is a good qualification. Arjuna was excusing the others, although they had insulted him and his wife and usurped his kingdom. He pleaded on their behalf before Lord Kṛṣṇa, arguing that it would be better to let them enjoy his kingdom. "I am not going to fight." Materially, this appears very laudable, but spiritually it is not, because Kṛṣṇa wanted him to fight. Finally, Arjuna carried out Kṛṣṇa's order and fought. Clearly, this kind of fighting was not for personal aggrandizement, but for the service of Kṛṣṇa. By using his power for the service of the Lord, Arjuna became a superman.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning religion, Nietzsche felt that because Christ's own disciples misunderstood him, Christianity as such never existed. "The last Christian died on the cross," he wrote. Although Christ was totally pure and free from all resentment and envy, Christianity has had envy and resentment as its focal point from its very beginning, even though it calls itself the religion of love. Thus Nietzsche proclaimed, "God is dead," in the sense that the God of the Christian religion is dead.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If you create an artificial god, it is better that he is dead so that he cannot inflict more injuries.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Then it is better to have no conception of God than a bad conception?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, better. But Christ was the embodiment of tolerance. There is no doubt about this.

Hayagrīva dāsa: It is not that Nietzsche criticizes Christ himself, but his followers.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, actually we can see that the Christians hate the Jews because the Jews crucified Christ. They even utilize the symbol of the cross to remind people that the Jews crucified him. Even in the churches there are pictures of Lord Jesus, with thorns on his head, being forced to carry his cross. In this way, the people are reminded of all the troubles that the Jews gave to Christ. Emphasizing Christ on the cross is a way of prolonging resentment against the Jews. But the fact is that Christ had many other activities, which are not brought into prominence. Actually, it is very painful for a devotee to see his master being crucified. Even though Christ was crucified, that scene in his life should not be emphasized.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Neitzsche considered Buddhism and Hinduism superior to Christianity, but he disliked the nihilism of the Buddhists and the caste system of the Hindus, especially the Hindu treatment of the untouchables.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is a later concoction by the caste Hindus. The true Vedic religion does not speak of untouchables. Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself demonstrated His system by accepting so-called untouchables like Haridasa Ṭhākura, who was born in a Mohammedan family. Although Haridasa Ṭhākura was not accepted by Hindu society, Caitanya Mahāprabhu personally indicated that he was most exalted. Haridasa Ṭhākura would not enter the temple of Lord Jagannātha because he did not want to create commotion, but Caitanya Mahāprabhu Himself came to see Haridasa Ṭhākura every day. It is a basic principle in the Vedic religion that we should not be envious of anyone. Kṛṣṇa Himself says in Bhagavad-gītā:

"O son of Pṛthā, those who take shelter in Me, though they be of lower birth—women, vaiśyas [merchants], as well as śūdras [workers]—can attain the supreme destination." (Bg. 9.32) Despite birth in a lower family, if one is a devotee, he is eligible to practice Kṛṣṇa consciousness And return to God, provided the necessary spiritual qualifications are there.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche believed that by stressing the transcendental world, a person would come to resent this world. He therefore personally rejected all formal religions.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This material world is described as a place of suffering. Ābrahma-bhuvanāl lokāḥpunar āvartino 'rjuna. "From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery, wherein repeated birth and death take place." (Bg. 8.16) We do not know whether Nietzsche realized this or not, but if one really understands the soul, he can realize that this material world is a place of suffering. Being part and parcel of God, the soul has the same qualities possessed by God. God is sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha, eternal, full of knowledge and bliss, and He is eternally enjoying Himself in the company of His associates. The living entities have the same nature, but in material life, eternity, knowledge, and bliss are absent. It is therefore better that we learn to detest material existence and try to give it up. Paraṁ dṛṣṭvā nivartate (Bg. 2.59). The Vedas advise us to understand the spiritual world and try to return there. Tamasi mā jyotir gama. The spiritual world is the kingdom of light, and this material world is the kingdom of darkness. The sooner we learn to avoid the world of darkness and return to the kingdom of light, the better it is.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche was greatly influenced by the ancient Greeks, and he was astounded that out of so few men, so many great individuals emerged. He believed that mankind ought to be constantly striving to produce such great men, men who conquer their evil instincts, and he considered this to be mankind's only duty.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Everyone is trying to be a great man, but one's greatness is accepted when he becomes God realized. The word veda means "knowledge," and a person is great when he is conversant with the lessons of the Vedas. The object of knowledge, as described in Bhagavad-gītā, is God, or the self. Since the individual is part and parcel of God, one is self-realized whether he realizes himself or God. There are different methods for self-realization, which is difficult. However, if one realizes God, he automatically realizes himself. If the sun is out, we can see everything very clearly. In the Vedas [Muṇḍaka Up. 1.3], it is said, yasmin vijñāte sarvam evam vijñātaṁ bhavati. By understanding God, we understand all other things and automatically become jolly. Brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā (Bg. 18.54). The word prasannātmā means "jolly." Samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu (Bg. 18.54). At that time, we can see that everyone is exactly like ourselves, because everyone is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. At this point, service of the Lord begins, and we attain the platform of knowledge, bliss, and eternity.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche emphatically states that there has never been a superman. "All too similar are men to each other," he writes. "Verily, even the greatest found I all too human." Nor does the superman evolve in the Darwinian sense. The Ubermensch is a possibility at present if man uses all of his spiritual and physical energies. But how is the superman possible without an object for his spiritual energies?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We become supermen if we engage in the service of the Supreme Person. The Supreme Being is a person, and the superman is also a person. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām(Kaṭha-Upaniṣad 2.2.13). God is the chief amongst all personalities. The superman has no other business than carrying out the orders of the Supreme Being.

"Uttama bhakti, or unalloyed devotion unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, involves the rendering of devotional service in a way that is favorable to the Lord. This devotional service should be free from any extraneous motive and devoid of fruitive karma, impersonal jñāna, and all other selfish desires." (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu 1.1.11) Kṛṣṇa comes to make everyone a superman. He therefore orders, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja. "Just give up everything and surrender to Me." (Bg. 18.66) Unless we are supermen, we cannot understand this instruction. If we can surrender to Kṛṣṇa, we are supermen.

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." (Bg. 7.19) The ordinary man thinks, "I have my independence and can do something myself. Why should I surrender?" However, as soon as he realizes that his only duty is to surrender to Kṛṣṇa, and that he has no other duty in this material world, he becomes the superman. This consciousness is attained after many, many births.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche would reject dependence on anything exterior to the superman himself. That is, he would reject props. But isn't it impossible for a man to elevate himself to that platform independent of the Supreme Lord?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Of course, and therefore Kṛṣṇa says, "Depend upon Me." You have to be dependent, and if you do not depend on Kṛṣṇa, you have to depend on the dictations of māyā, illusion. There are many philosophers and politicians dependent on others, or dependent on their own whimsical ideas, but we should depend on the perfect instructions of God. The fact is that every living being is dependent; he cannot be independent. If he voluntarily depends on the instructions of God, he becomes the superman.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche's superman seems to resemble the haṭha-yogī who elevates himself seemingly independent of God.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, seemingly. As soon as a haṭha-yogī gets some extraordinary mystic powers, he thinks that he has become God. This is another mistake, because no one can become God. To some extent, a yogī may attain some mystical powers by practice, or by the favor of the Lord, but these powers are not sufficient to enable him to become God. There are many who think that through meditation, or haṭha-yoga, it is possible to become equal to God, but this is another illusion, another dictation of māyā. Māyā is always saying, "Why depend on God? You can become God yourself."

Hayagrīva dāsa: Independence seems to be central to Nietzsche's philosophy. In a sense, his superman is somewhat like Hiraṇyakaśipu, who made the demigods tremble to see his austerities.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, and ultimately he was outwitted by the Supreme Himself. It is not good to struggle for material power and control over others. If one becomes a servant of God, he becomes the superman automatically and acquires many subordinate followers. One does not have to undergo severe austerities to control others. Everything can be mastered in one stroke. As soon as you become a devout servant of God, many people will follow you. Separate endeavor is not required.

Hayagrīva dāsa: And what of sense control?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Control of the senses is automatically there.

"All the demigods and their exalted qualities, such as religion, knowledge, and renunciation, become manifest in the body of one who has developed unalloyed devotion for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vāsudeva. On the other hand, a person devoid of devotional service and engaged in material activities has no good qualities. Even if he is adept at the practice of mystic yoga, or the honest endeavor of maintaining his family and relatives, he must be driven by his own mental speculations and must engage in the service of the Lord's external energy. How can there be any good qualities in such a man?" (Bhāg. 5.18.12) If one becomes a devotee of the Supreme Lord, he controls his senses and many other living entities. But he never thinks that he has become God or the actual controller. Rather, he receives his power automatically.

Hayagrīva dāsa: One last point on Nietzsche. He believed in eternal recurrence—that is, after this universe has been destroyed, it will be repeated again after many aeons.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: In Bhagavad-gītā, it is stated, bhūtvā bhūtvā pralīyate (Bg. 8.19). This material world is manifest at a certain point, maintained for a certain period, then destroyed. Brahmā, Viṣṇu, and Śiva are in charge of creation, maintenance, and destruction. Above them is Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It is the nature of everything material to be created, maintained, and annihilated.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Well, that's one type of general repetition, but Nietzsche believed that everything will be repeated infinitely in every detail. That is, the detailed arrangements of this world will eventually recur sometime in the future.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The creation will be repeated in detail in that the twenty-four elements will again be assembled. There are the five gross elements—earth, water, fire, air, and ether—and three subtle elements: mind, intelligence, and ego. There are the ten senses, and the five sense objects. All these will be created again.

Hayagrīva dāsa: That's one type of detail, but he believes that eventually, Friedrich Nietzsche will live again from 1844 to 1900.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The year 1844 is an element of time, and from the moment of creation, we may begin to assign dates. In this way, the date may again be repeated. For instance, every day is a new day, but in every day there is six o'clock, eight o'clock, and so on. There is automatic repetition.

Hayagrīva dāsa: If this is the case, if one has to continue being Friedrich Nietzsche, or whoever, how is liberation possible?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This material world is created for the conditioned soul, who is put here in order to learn his position as the eternal servant of God. Lord Brahmā, the first created being in the universe, is given the Vedic instructions, and he distributes them through the disciplic succession, from Brahmā to Nārada, from Nārada to Vyāsadeva, from Vyāsadeva to Śukadeva Gosvāmī, and so on. These instructions encourage the conditioned soul to return home, back to Godhead. If the conditioned soul rejects them, he remains in the material world until it is annihilated. At that time, he remains in an unconscious state, just like a child within the womb of his mother. In due course of time, his consciousness revives, and he again takes birth. The point is that anyone can take advantage of the Vedic instructions and go back to Godhead. Unfortunately, the conditioned living entities are so attached to the material world that they repeatedly want to take up material bodies. In this way, history repeats. There is again creation, maintenance, and destruction.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Nietzsche believes that even the minute details will recur. That is, he would again be Friedrich Nietzsche, living in Germany, going through the same actions, writing the same books, and so on.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Why is he so attached to Germany? That is his attachment for māyā. Under māyā's influence, we think that we will again return in these same bodies and do the same things. Sometimes when people hanker after this repetition, they go to an astrologer and ask, "Can we again come back as husband and wife?" This is all due to attachment. There may be an accidental recurrence, and one will again be a husband and have a wife, but he will not have exactly the same wife. That is an illusion. What is the point in combining the same husband and wife? The living entities combine for some sense gratification, and they get it, be it this husband or that wife. The purpose is the same, though the minute details are different.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Sometimes people claim to have experiences of deja-vu, thinking that they have been at the same spot before doing the same thing. This convinced Nietzsche of the doctrine of eternal recurrence.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: People simply want the same atmosphere. This is due to māyā's influence.