Immanuel Kant (1724-1804)

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In Critique of Pure Reason, Kant asks the fundamental question, "How are a priori synthetic judgments possible?" How can we apprehend the relationship between cause and effect? Where does this facility come from? What is the source of knowledge? He proposes that one knowledge-acquiring process, the transcendental aesthetic, synthesizes sense experience through the concepts of time and space. The mind acts upon sensory perceptions and applies time and space relations to them. Knowledge of time and space is a priori, prior to and independent of sense experience. It is an internal creation of the mind. Even before we sense anything, we have an idea of time and space.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: He speaks of the transcendental aesthetic, but we understand the real meaning of transcendental to be beyond the senses—that is, referring to something not in our experience. We have to receive this knowledge from higher authority, paramparā, a source beyond the reach of the material senses. By sense perception, we have no knowledge of the spiritual world, but in Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says that there is another nature, a spiritual nature, which is beyond this material nature (Bg. 8.20). We have to understand this through transcendental knowledge; we cannot experience it.

"Material senses cannot appreciate Kṛṣṇa's holy name, form, qualities, and pastimes. When a conditioned soul is awakened to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and renders service by using his tongue to chant the Lord's holy name and taste the remnants of the Lord's food, the tongue is purified, and one gradually comes to understand who Kṛṣṇa really is." (Padma Purāṇa). The names, qualities, pastimes, and nature of God cannot be understood by these material senses, but if we engage in God's service, they will all be revealed. Vaikuṇṭha and Goloka Vṛndāvana, Kṛṣṇa's abode, will then be confirmed. These truths are revealed gradually; they are not abruptly understood. Common men cannot understand the meaning of going back to Godhead. They say, "What nonsense is this?" They cannot understand because it is transcendental, beyond the reach of the gross senses. It is revealed knowledge. If one becomes submissive and engages in the service of the Lord and the spiritual master, all these truths will be revealed. No one can mislead a person who receives knowledge through revelation. From Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that there is a transcendental abode, cintāmaṇi, and we cannot forget this even if offered a great fortune to forget. On the other hand, if we offer a person a million dollars to believe in the transcendental abode, he will not believe in it. Transcendental knowledge is not a matter of speculation. It is received from higher authority. As we progress in bhakti-yoga, these things become clear.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant strongly advocated the right and duty of every man to judge for himself in religious and secular matters. "Have courage to make use of your own intellect" was his motto. He emphasized individual freedom and the ability of man to intuit the truth.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Does this mean that whatever anyone does is perfectly right? If we are given that freedom, then anyone can do as he likes.

Hayagrīva dāsa: At the same time, Kant considered the Bible to be the best vehicle for the instruction of the public in a truly moral religion.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This means that he has accepted some authority. Where is his freedom then?

Hayagrīva dāsa: The individual can intuit truths within, but can be helped from without by scripture.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This means that we should not be totally independent. We should be dependent on some authority, and that authority should be recognized. Then knowledge is possible. That is Vaiṣṇavism.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Descartes believed that knowledge comes through innate ideas, and Hume opposed this by saying that knowledge comes from sense experience. Kant tries to unify these extremes.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Knowledge comes from purified sense experience. That is sevā. I may see Kṛṣṇa, whereas others may see a stone. This means that my eyes and vision are different.

"I worship the primeval Lord, Govinda, who is always seen by the devotee whose eyes are anointed with the pulp of love. He is seen in His eternal form of Śyāmasundara situated within the heart of the devotee." (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.38) When our eyes are anointed with the ointment of love of God, we can truly see. The same applies to the rest of the senses. Unless our senses are purified, we can neither see nor know.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In Critique of Pure Reason, Kant wrote: "Thoughts without content are empty, perceptions without conceptions are blind....Understanding can perceive nothing, the senses can think nothing. Knowledge arises only from their united action."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: When you try to understand through the senses, that is called pratyakṣa. There is knowledge through direct perception, pratyakṣa, and knowledge received from higher authorities, paro'kṣa. When we apply our senses and come to the same conclusion, that is anumāna. For instance, a higher authority says that there is a spiritual world. Now, how can we come to this conclusion? Obviously, we have to apply our senses. We can reason, "I am a combination of spirit and matter. That is a fact. However, I cannot see the spirit at the present moment, but I know that there is spirit." If we understand that there is a material world, we can also understand that there is a spiritual world. We can arrive at this conclusion by applying our senses and reason. If a material world is possible, certainly a spiritual world is possible. This is preliminary knowledge. When we see a dead body, we understand that something is missing. We see this with our senses, and from higher authority, from Bhagavad-gītā, we understand that this something that is missing is eternal.

"Know that which pervades the entire body is indestructible. No one is able to destroy the imperishable soul." (Bg. 2.17) That consciousness is spread throughout the body. It is eternal and spiritual. Through our sense experience, we can also understand that the body is constantly changing from the body of a child to that of an old man, and that this consciousness is continuing. Despite the different bodily changes, consciousness is enduring. The basic principles of knowledge are received from higher authorities, just as preliminary mathematical information is given by the teacher when he informs the student that two plus two equals four. God has given us reason, senses, and consciousness, and by applying them, we can arrive at the proper conclusion.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In Critique of Judgement, Kant writes: "Absolutely no human reason...can hope to understand the production of even a blade of grass by mere mechanical causes. That crude matter should have originally formed itself according to mechanical laws, that life should have sprung from the nature of what is lifeless, that matter should have been able to dispose itself into the form of a self-maintaining purpose—is contradictory to reason."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore we have to learn from an authority, from one who is cognizant and knows things as they are. Matter certainly cannot combine itself without a brain behind it, and that brain is the Supreme Lord, God. It is unreasonable to think that matter automatically combines independent of intelligence to form the sun, moon, and other planets.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: If we are unable to receive knowledge from a higher authority, is it possible to have it innately inside of us?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Innate knowledge is knowledge that is already there. We say that Kṛṣṇa is the caitya-guru because Kṛṣṇa is within. Kṛṣṇa is everything both inside and outside. Within, He is the Paramātmā, the Supersoul, and outside He is the spiritual master and the śāstra, the scripture. Kṛṣṇa is trying to help the conditioned soul in both ways: from within and without. It is therefore said that the spiritual master is the representative of Kṛṣṇa because Kṛṣṇa appears outside as the spiritual master. Inside, He is personally present as Paramātmā.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Kant, the second knowledge-attaining process is the transcendental analytic. First, the mind applies the concept of time and space. Then it applies the categories of quantity, cause and effect, quality, modality, and so on.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is all right.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: The third process is the transcendental dialectic, whereby the human mind seeks to understand everything. But since sensory information is inadequate, the mind tries to go beyond sense experience.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: How is that?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: The mind is aware that there is an ultimate reality, a thing in itself, a noumenon, which produces each phenomenon. But because the mind is not equipped to sense this ultimate reality, the mind must forever remain agnostic.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Why agnostic? He should go to higher authorities. If we hear a sound on the roof, we may speculate that the sound is this or that, but with our imperfect senses we cannot ascertain what made the sound. But if someone is actually on the roof, he can tell us, "The sound was made by this." Why should we remain satisfied with an agnostic position? We should satisfy ourselves by asking, "Is there someone on the roof?" If someone says, "Yes, I am here," then we can ask him what made the sound. Therefore the Vedas enjoin: tad-vijñānārthaṁ sa gurum evābhigacchet (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12). In order to understand what is beyond the senses, we must approach a spiritual master who can impart information. When we actually want to understand transcendental subjects, we must approach a guru. And what is a guru?

"Any person who is seriously desirous of achieving real happiness must seek out a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. A spiritual master must have realized the conclusion of the scriptures by deliberation and arguments and thus be able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personalities who have taken complete shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, are to be understood as bona fide spiritual masters." (Bhāg. 11.3.21) A guru is one who is well versed in the Vedic literatures, śruti. And how can we understand that he is? Brahmaṇy upaśamāśrayam. One who knows the Vedas forgets everything material and concerns himself only with spirit soul.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant was just exploring the possibility that although we cannot know ultimate reality by our senses, the mind nevertheless wants to know it.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But that is misleading. No one can ascertain the Absolute Truth by mental speculation. That is impossible. The śāstras state: panthāstu koṭi-śata-vatsara-sampragamyaḥ (Brahma-saṁhitā 5.34). Even if we travel at the speed of mind for thousands of years, we cannot find Kṛṣṇa. If this is the case, a man, who lives the utmost for only a hundred years, cannot understand Kṛṣṇa through his material senses. The material attempt will be futile. The Vedas say that the devotee who has received a little grace from Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet can understand Him. Others will speculate for millions of years to no end. Kṛṣṇa can be understood only through the grace of Kṛṣṇa. Because the devotee is engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service, Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant would also say that we cannot experience God through our senses but only through faith and intuitive reason. Speculative reason is unable to attain to a sure or adequate conception of God.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is correct: it is not possible to understand God by mental speculation. When God explains Himself, we can understand Him. The devotees can accept the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His instructions, but a nondevotee or atheist, unable to understand, simply speculates. It is not possible for a speculator to reach the vicinity of God. We can understand God only by God's mercy, which is bestowed by a pure devotee surrendered to God. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa explicitly states:

"I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them, I am covered by My eternal creative potency (yoga-māyā); and so the deluded world knows Me not, who am unborn and infallible." (Bg. 7.25) Revelation means that God opens the curtain for His devotee. The sun is in the sky all the time, but at night it is obscured. By God's mercy, the sun rises in the morning, and everyone can immediately see the light. At night, we may speculate about the sun, but when the sun rises in the morning, we can immediately understand what the sun is.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant maintains that the mental speculators try to reconstruct ultimate reality by applying mundane categories to it. They attempt through the mind to create what they believe to be the real world.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: For mental speculators, the real world is nothing more than the negation of this world. This is voidism. In this world, we experience that everything is material. The mental speculator's materialistic thinking induces him to conclude that the spiritual must be the opposite of the material. Since the material has form, the spiritual must be formless, or void. This is typical materialistic thinking. He thinks, "Since this is not truth, the opposite must be truth."

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant says that "the world is my representation." That is, this real world becomes an ideal construction in the mind of man.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We try to construct an ideal world, but we are frustrated here because everything is temporary; therefore we can understand that the ideal must be eternal. No one wants to die; we all want to live. However, this is hopeless because the body is not eternal. Therefore we understand that in the ideal world, the body is eternal.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant acknowledges that there is a design in nature but that man, not being able to know the total design, cannot know for certain whether there is a designer. The design, as man sees it, does not necessarily prove the existence of the designer. His existence can only be intuited.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: As soon as we see pottery, we immediately understand that there is a potter. It is impossible for pottery to be made any other way.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant maintains that due to the overwhelming effects of suffering and natural calamities, it is impossible for man to see nature's final end.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Nature does not have a final end; nature is only an instrument. If I beat you with a stick, it is I, not the stick, that is beating you. When we receive pains and tribulations from nature, we should understand that nature is an instrument designed by God. Śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkheṣu (Bg. 12.18). By witnessing the changes of seasons, heat and cold, happiness and distress, we can understand that there is a designer or brain behind the functionings of material nature.

"This material nature is working under My direction, O son of Kuntī, and it is producing all moving and unmoving beings. By its rule this manifestation is created and annihilated again and again." (Bg. 9.10)

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant would say that the design can be intuited but not known.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: To a foolish man, everything is unknown, but a man in knowledge knows everything from authority, or from direct perception. Some way or other, the knowledge is there. Something is unknown when one doesn't care to know, or doesn't want to receive the knowledge.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: When man realizes the futility of mental speculation, he attempts to create ideas about the universe which transcend the bounds of experience. For Kant, this is the third stage, the transcendental dialectic. These ideas belong to the realm of pure reason, or transcendental reason, and are not mere fictions. They spring from the very nature of reason itself.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We are all seeking eternity. Because we understand that we are eternal souls, we know that this is not our place, and are therefore seeking the eternal world. The spirit soul does not feel comfortable within this material body. This is understood when we conclude that we must return to the spiritual world and attain a spiritual body. Information on how this is done is given in Bhagavad-gītā, wherein Kṛṣṇa says that one who understands Him and develops love for Him attains a spiritual body that will enable him to see God. If we are very anxious to see Kṛṣṇa and full in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we will be transferred to Kṛṣṇa's abode at the time of death. This is Kṛṣṇa's promise in Bhagavad-gītā.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Transcendental reasoning is in man to guide his understanding to clearer and wider knowledge. For instance, the idea of a Supreme Being is a regulative principle of reason because it tells us to view everything in the world as if it proceeded from a necessary cause, the Supreme Being.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The Supreme Being is the cause of all causes.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant says that it is the natural impulse of pure reason to perceive a total regularity in everything. To arrive at this total synthesis, the mind must suppose that there is a Supreme Being.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is confirming the statements of Bhagavad-gītā.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: He claims that it is impossible to arrive at the ultimate reality by pure reason alone because phenomena are endless.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Therefore he has to accept Kṛṣṇa's assertions. He has to admit that he is puzzled with these various changes in phenomena. As soon as we come to Kṛṣṇa, we find out that Kṛṣṇa is behind the changing phenomena and that the universe is working under His direction. This is the perfect conclusion.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: According to Kant, when we examine material phenomena by our reason, we arrive at certain contradictions called antimonies—that is, two opposing statements regarded to be true.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: In Sanskrit, this is called viruddhārtha, words that mean both yes and no.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For instance: "The world has a beginning in time, and is enclosed within limits of space." And, "The world has no beginning in time, and no limits in space, but is infinite." As far as reason is concerned, both conclusions are true.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: So how is this adjusted? The adjustment is given in Bhagavad-gītā, wherein Kṛṣṇa says that this phenomenal world of materials comes into existence, is annihilated, and then comes again into existence.

"When Brahmā's day is manifest, this multitude of living entities comes into being, and at the arrival of Brahmā's night they are all annihilated. Again and again the day comes, and this host of beings is active; and again the night falls, O Pārtha, and they are helplessly dissolved." (Bg. 8.18-19)

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Another antimony of Kant's is: "Every composite substance in the world is made up of simple parts, and nothing whatever exists but the simple, or what is composed out of the simple." And, "No composite thing in the world is made up of simple parts, nor does anything simple exist anywhere in the world."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We say that the whole world is made of material energy, and this is the simplistic view. Now, there are many component parts of material energy: the mahat-tattva, the pradhāna, the puruṣa, the twenty-four elements, the five gross elements, eight subtle elements, the senses, the objects of the senses, and so forth. In this way, when we begin to analyze material energy, so many complications arise.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Another antimony deals with causal relations: "Causality and conformity with laws of nature are not the only causality from which all the phenomena of the world can be derived. To explain those phenomena, it is necessary to suppose that there is also a free causality." And, "There is no freedom, but all that comes to be in the world takes place entirely in accordance with laws of nature."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: He cannot explain the cause because he does not know it. The ultimate cause is Kṛṣṇa, God. Events may seem miraculous because we cannot understand how they are taking place. God's energy is so subtle that it works simply by His will. By His will, all processes in nature take place, but they take place so swiftly that we see them as miracles. Actually, there is no such thing as a miracle; we only see it as a miracle. Kṛṣṇa is floating many planets in space, and this may seem like a miracle, but to Kṛṣṇa it is not. Kṛṣṇa is known as Yogeśvara, the master of all mystic power.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Another antimony questions the existence of an Absolute Being: "There exists an absolutely necessary being, which belongs to the world either as a part or as the cause." And, "There nowhere exists an absolutely necessary being, either in the world or outside, as its cause." Thus, according to reason, we can conclude that there is either a God or no God.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: What reasoning can support the nonexistence of God?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: We can conclude this by using the senses.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But where do you get your senses?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: One could say that they are only a combination of matter.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But where does this matter come from?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: According to material reasoning, one can say that there is no necessary cause.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But we can see that matter is growing, coming into existence like a tree.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: It may have been eternally existing.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: How is that? A tree is not eternally existing. This brass pot is not eternally existing. Someone has made it.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But the matter itself could have been eternally existing.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But we can see that it is not only existing. It is growing. A tree is wood, and wood is matter. How is it growing? Similarly, our material bodies take birth at a certain moment, grow, reproduce, dwindle, and finally vanish. This is the nature of all matter. Everything starts out as a seed and grows from there. Now, where does the seed come from? Kṛṣṇa says, bījaṁ mām sarva-bhūtānāṁ. "I am the original seed of all existences." (Bg. 7.10) Therefore Kṛṣṇa is the cause of everything.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant's point is that these antimonies arise from the attempt by reason to apply its categories to the Absolute, the transcendent. But by mundane reasoning alone, we cannot approach the Absolute.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: By our reasoning, we can see that everything is growing and that the entire cosmic manifestation must have grown from a source.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But this is transcendental reasoning.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, common reason. Everything is growing from a certain source; therefore this material world must have grown from a certain source. It is very simple.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But some people can look at the seed of a tree and come to a different conclusion.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Well, we also receive this information from authoritative literature, from the Vedas.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Someone can apply material reasoning and arrive at a different conclusion.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But is this reasoning proved by experience? Can a man prove that he is born without a father? How did the material body come into existence? How can one deny his father? How can one deny the cause? He cannot because his very existence is depending on some cause.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant is simply saying that whenever we begin to speculate about the Absolute, we run into contradictions.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Contradiction is due to imperfect knowledge. Unless we conclude that Kṛṣṇa is the cause of all causes, our knowledge is doomed to be imperfect. Vedic literature says that Kṛṣṇa glanced at material nature and impregnated her. Then so many products developed, including all these categories. Matter and spirit combined to bring this whole cosmic manifestation into existence.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Kant, cause and effect relationships are also a priori conceptions, mental creations, like time and space. Prior to sense experience, we have an idea of them.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: I take my birth at a certain time, and I die at a certain time. Time is existing before my birth, and it will continue to exist after my death. Similarly with space. This body is temporarily manifest in time, for a certain period considered my lifespan. During that time, I occupy some space, and that is a temporary occupation. Time and space, however, are eternally there. At least, time is eternally there, because space is also born in time.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: How is that?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We receive information from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam that because this material space is also ākāśa, it is born of the finer, subtle mind and intelligence. These descriptions are given in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Space is also created.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Hume had said that cause and effect are habitual assumptions, that we naturally assume that a certain effect follows a certain cause but that the cause does not necessarily bring about the effect.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We don't agree with that. There cannot be an effect without a cause. Let him prove first that there is an existence without a cause.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Well, Hume gave the example of a footprint on the beach. Normally we can assume that a human being left the footprint.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Why normally assume? If it is actually there, it is a fact.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Possibly something else left the footprint. Someone could have made a cast of a foot, or some other possibility may exist.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is nonsense. Why should someone make a footprint to mislead you? But even if he does, that is the cause. The cause is that someone came to mislead you.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant would say that when we see something, we intuitively understand the cause and effect relationship.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: You may or may not understand what the cause is, but there must be a cause. Without a cause, nothing can happen. People foolishly inquire when or why the living entity fell into material nature, but what is the use of this question? There is certainly a cause, but instead of trying to find out the cause, we should try to treat the disease. Why waste time?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant concludes that because the mind imposes a priori laws upon nature as both necessary and universal, the mind is creative and does not come into the world a blank slate.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is a fact that the mind is creative. It creates and then rejects. That is the mind's business—saṁkalpa-vikalpa.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant would say that apart from using the categories of thought—like quantity, quality, cause and effect, and modality—there is only mere guesswork and imperfect dogma. The mind is not satisfied with this partial explanation; it wants to grasp reality in a comprehensive way. The mind wants to know something beyond these categories, and this is the realm of the transcendental dialectic.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This inquisitiveness is actual philosophy. We are searching for the cause of all causes. A thoughtful man is naturally interested in the ultimate cause of everything. That is human nature. It is the mahātmā who searches after the ultimate cause and finds it. The Vedānta-sūtra therefore begins with the inquiry: athāto brahma-jijñāsā. "What is the ultimate cause? What is Brahman?" It answers: janmādyasya yataḥ. "Brahman is the supreme source from whom everything emanates." Unless we go to the supreme source, we cannot be satisfied. Those who approach this source through mental speculation attain the impersonal feature. From this point, they can make further advancement. In Īśopaniṣad, there is a prayer petitioning the Supreme:

"O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Please remove that covering and reveal Yourself to Your pure devotee." (Īśopaniṣad 15) If we penetrate this impersonal Brahman, we will arrive at Kṛṣṇa, and then be satisfied. Therefore it is stated in Bhagavad-gītā:

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." (Bg. 7.19)

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant says that after the futile attempt to apply categorical analysis to transcendental knowledge, a man attempts to create other ideas about the universe which transcend sense experience.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: In other words, after failing to attain material knowledge, he attempts to attain transcendental knowledge. What is this?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Rather, he fails to understand transcendental knowledge when applying the techniques of material knowledge.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This means that he cannot approach transcendental knowledge with material senses. If this is not possible, how can he hope to form valid ideas about transcendence?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Through pure reason.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: He admits that the material senses cannot reach transcendence, but he is not clear about the meaning of this pure reason. If the senses are imperfect, and if your reasoning is fed by the senses, your reasoning is also imperfect.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant maintains that reason can act a priori, separate or independent of the senses, to understand that there is God and a soul.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is possible.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In fact, Kant recognizes three ideals of pure reason: the soul, the ultimate world, and God. These ideals transcend the bounds of sensory experience; they are innate and a priori.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is also true.

"Pure love for Kṛṣṇa is eternally established in the hearts of living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, the living entity naturally awakens." (Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madh. 22.107) It is our natural tendency to offer service to the Lord. Caitanya Mahāprabhu has also said that the living entity is God's eternal servant. The tendency to offer service is natural. Somehow or other, it has been covered by material ignorance.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Whereas sense perception cannot provide any information about the soul and God, pure reason can provide us with certain conceptions, but not much more.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We cannot know more by our personal attempt, but these subjects can be known by a process called guru-paramparā. When God speaks, it is possible to know. We hear from God in order to understand what, who, and where He is. In this way, our knowledge is perfect. According to Kant, we cannot attain reality or God through reason and the senses. That is a fact admitted in the Vedas. The word vacanam means "words," and manaḥ means "mind." We cannot reach the Supreme either by words or the mind.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant suggests that certain knowledge of God's existence would destroy a man's freedom and reduce human experience to a show of puppets frantically attempting to attain the favor of the Almighty. Thus uncertainty is a necessary ingredient for faith.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Faith should not be blind. If it is, it is useless. We may believe in the government, but the government is not dependent on faith. There is a government, and we are under the government's laws and therefore have to obey them. There is no question of faith. Similarly, one who knows God becomes dependent on Him, and that is not faith but fact. The devotee is happy depending on God. He knows that it is foolishness to think himself independent. A child voluntarily depends on his parents and is therefore happy.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Since our knowledge is limited to mere phenomena, faith is necessary to acquire knowledge of God, freedom, and immortality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, faith is not a fact but a compromise. It is good that he admits that we cannot approach God ultimately by our senses or reason, but faith alone also is not sufficient, not perfect. Western philosophers have created so many different faiths. One may believe in one faith, and another person in another, but this is faith, not fact. The fact is this: if we are convinced that there is a God and that He is omnipotent, we have to admit that by His omnipotence He can descend into the world. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says that He descends into the world for two reasons: to rectify the discrepancies in religion, and to please His devotees who are always anxious to see Him. Some people may say that God is partial, but He is not. God is kind both to His devotees and to the miscreants and demons. When the miscreants are killed by God, they attain immediate salvation, and when the devotees see God, they can understand His actual position. In Vṛndāvana, God displays Himself just as He does in the spiritual world. It is His nature to play with the cowherd boys and dance with the gopīs. When the devotees understand this, they become encouraged by knowing that after finishing the material body, they will return to Kṛṣṇa to join in His pastimes. This information is not only understood from the śāstras, but is actually demonstrated by Kṛṣṇa. Thus this knowledge is doubly confirmed. When we hear about God and His activities, we can also realize them because God is absolute. There is no difference between seeing Him and hearing about Him. In this way, true knowledge is attained. However expert a logician one may be, it is not possible by reason, logic, or mundane knowledge to approach the Supreme Absolute. It is possible to understand God only when He descends Himself, gives information about Himself, and displays His pastimes.

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is a chronicle of the descents of God. If we try to understand God through Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam or Bhagavad-gītā, we become a bhāgavata. In Bhagavad-gītā, God speaks about Himself and His activities, and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam is a record of God's activities and pastimes. The first nine cantos are devoted to the understanding of the transcendental nature of God, and the Tenth Canto is a chronicle of God's activities before the eyes of the people of the world. However, those who are miscreants will think that God is just a famous person, or a superhuman being, and that's all.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning religion and faith, Kant writes: "There is only one (true) religion, but there can be faiths of several kinds. It is therefore more fitting to say, 'This man is of this or that faith (Jewish, Mohammedan, Catholic, Lutheran), than he is of this or that religion.'"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is correct. Since religion means obedience to God, it does not refer to some sect. People are trying to understand God in different ways, but these ways are not real religion; they are methods of understanding God. Religion begins when we have understood God and are rendering Him service.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In Critique of Practical Reason, Kant affirmed that moral laws are necessary and universal objects of the human will and must be accepted as valid for everyone. We can know what is morally right a priori, by intuition.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. Morality is relative. It varies according to the development of a particular society. For instance, there are many immoral acts taking place in modern society, but no one cares. People go ahead and act as they please.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then there is no universal morality?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Universal morality means obeying God. That's all.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But are any of God's laws fixed?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: All laws are included if you obey God. That is universal morality.

"Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend." (Bg. 18.65) This is the basis of morality. We must become Kṛṣṇa's servitor. Since so many immoral activities are being accepted as moral, how else can a person know what is moral and what is not?

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant writes: "For a rational but finite being, the only thing possible is an endless progress from the lower to the higher degrees of moral perfection."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This means that there is an endless struggle to understand real morality. This is not necessary. We need only accept the orders of God and follow them. That is ultimate reality.

Hayagrīva dāsa: What Kant means by morality is rather vague. He does not give specific outlines for action. Rather, he writes, "The moral individual is to do what is good only because it is good." According to his categorical imperative, man should act in such a way that the maxim of his actions might become the principle for universal law.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But that is impossible for the individual soul. It is impossible for a conditioned living entity to do something that will be universally accepted.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Then man cannot establish a universal law by his own action?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. Only God can do so. Only God can say, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam. "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me." (Bg. 18.66) If an individual conditioned soul says this, who will accept him?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But Kant says that there are certain imperatives that we are born with.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: What are these? He should say specifically. The only universal imperative is that you should be obedient to God. That's all.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant rejects the traditional proofs of God's existence in order to clear the ground for his assertion that God is morally necessary in a moral universe. In this universe, every soul is an end in itself, and these individual souls are like citizens in a "kingdom of ends."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Why does he use the word "kingdom" if he does not accept the king?

Hayagrīva dāsa: No, he would say that the king is a moral necessity in a moral universe. He simply rejects the traditional proofs.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That's all right, but he sees the individual souls as ends in themselves. There is no question of such independence, because everything is part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God is behind nature, and if our morality denies the existence of God, what is its value? One man may think that animal killing is good, while another may think that it is immoral. So who is correct? There must be some authority to establish morality. Morality must have some background, otherwise it will change at any moment.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant also writes: "It does not enter men's heads that when they fulfill their duty to men (themselves and others), they are, by these very acts, performing God's commands and are therefore in all their actions and abstentions, so far as these concern morality, perpetually in the service of God, and that it is absolutely impossible to serve God directly in any other way "

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If man does not serve God, how can he know how to serve humanity? If he does not receive information from God about how to serve humanity, what is the value of his humanitarianism? The best way to serve mankind is to preach this message of Bhagavad-gītā so that everyone can become a faithful servant of God. When we are God's servants, we can render service not only to our fellow man but to all other living entities as well. However, if we manufacture our service, it is useless.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In the preface to one of his last works, Religion Within the Limits of Reason Alone, Kant seems to shift his position to say that morality "extends itself to the idea of a powerful moral Lawgiver, outside of mankind." Still, he believes that knowledge of God is ultimately uncertain.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is uncertain for one who does not have perfect knowledge. If you believe in God and know God, you can get perfect knowledge from Him. Then you'll become perfect.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Ideally, for Kant, it is the moral obligation of everyone to obey the moral commands.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Not moral commands, but the supreme command. As I said, what is moral for you may be immoral for others. One man's food is another's poison. If Kṛṣṇa tells Yudhiṣṭhira to lie, that lying is moral. Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna to fight and kill, and that killing is moral. Morality means obeying God's order. Because your senses are imperfect, you cannot create morality. You cannot even know what is moral. Therefore you should follow the orders of Kṛṣṇa or His representative. The real categorical imperative is to obey the Supreme. That is morality, and anything else is immoral.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then we are not born with a priori knowledge of what is right?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: A priori in the sense that we know we have to obey Kṛṣṇa. That knowledge is manifest even in uncivilized men. When aborigines see a thunderbolt, they offer prayers. It is natural and inborn to offer obeisances.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant says that it is not the act itself which is good or bad, but the will behind the act.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, but that will has to be developed. A child has will, but it has to be developed by his teacher. Everyone in the material world is in ignorance; therefore it is called a place of darkness. The Vedas advise: "Don't remain in darkness. Go to the light." The spiritual world is light. In the material world, since our will is in darkness, it is bound to be imperfect. The will has to be dragged to the light, and that requires superior help. We cannot think, "I am doing this for a good cause; therefore it is good." In this way, people manufacture all kinds of creeds and act in every way. Guidance is required. We must consult a superior authority for confirmation.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant believed that only man can be regarded as nature's own end, or highest product, because on earth only man is capable of complying with the categorical imperative, the moral law.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: But if nature creates man, then nature is supreme. However, nature is only dull matter.

"Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence, and false ego—all together these eight constitute My separated material energies." (Bg. 7.4) Human beings cannot create these things, nor can nature in itself create them. So how can nature create man? How can man be considered nature's own end or highest product? What is the logic in this philosophy?

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant would say that man is nature's final end because man's moral nature alone is worthwhile.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We object to his emphasizing that man is a product of nature. Nature itself cannot make man. Nature provides the body, just as a tailor provides a suit. This body is but the outward covering of the living entity. The living entity within the body is not created by material nature. He is part and parcel of God.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant says that man belongs to "the kingdom of ends" because man is not just an object of utility but an end in himself. Since he alone possesses self-direction, or dignity, he should never stoop to sell himself like a commodity.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: And what is that end? Kant does not give any concrete example. Man's dignity is his inherent quality of obedience to the Supreme. It is that obedience that we should not sacrifice. We are not independent, but subordinate to God's will. Kant may be a strict moralist, but that is not the highest platform. We have to transcend even the moral principle to attain perfection. There is morality and immorality in the material world because there are the three modes of material nature operating: goodness, passion, and ignorance. Morality is on the platform of goodness. According to the transcendental, spiritual point of view, the entire material world is condemned. One may be a first-class prisoner, or a second-class prisoner, a brāhmaṇa or a śūdra. Whatever the case, one is still a conditioned soul. Of course, as far as conditional life is concerned, there is value in morality. Morality may help us come to the transcendental platform, but coming to that platform is not dependent on morality. It is independent of everything. Kṛṣṇa's order is above morality.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But might not morality help us see behind the moral law and transcend it?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Not necessarily. In Bhagavad-gītā, we find that Arjuna was trying to become moral by not killing his relatives, but that could not help him. Rather, by directly abiding by the orders of Kṛṣṇa, he transcended morality. So morality in itself does not always help.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant spoke of "the starry sky above, and the moral law within." This seems to echo Christ's teaching that "the kingdom of God is within you."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, if you are actually a lover of God and His instructions, the kingdom of God is within.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant proposes that since the moral law cannot possibly be fulfilled within the limits of one lifetime, the soul must be immortal.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is a very good proposition. That is real evolution. Darwin had no idea of the existence of the soul, and he gave some theories about material evolution, which we do not accept. But there is spiritual evolution. Even though a devotee falls down, what he has earned in devotional service will never be lost. In the next life, he begins from that point. However, as far as material activities are concerned, they vanish with the change of body.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant also proposes that since only God can insure the human endeavor for the supreme good, God's existence is a necessary postulate of practical reason.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We have already explained this. Whatever devotional service is rendered in this life is taken up in the next. Who can give the living entity that chance but God? I may forget, but God does not forget. God is Paramātmā. He is within, and He knows what the living entity has done to this point.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Kant, the summum bonum is virtue combined with happiness. Happiness is the knowledge of doing what is right.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Happiness means spiritual happiness. There is no material happiness because whatever is material is temporary. Since the spirit soul is eternal, he must have spiritual happiness. That happiness is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If you know that you are the eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa, and you are serving Kṛṣṇa, that service is your happiness. Even if your duty is painful, you are still happy because you know that you are acting for Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant points out that on earth, happiness does not necessarily accompany goodness; therefore there must be a God who sees that a virtuous man finds his deserved happiness in a future life. Without such justice, there would be no meaning to morality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, in the last mantra of Īśopaniṣad, it is stated:

"O my Lord, powerful as fire, omnipotent One, now I offer You all obeisances, falling on the ground at Your feet. O my Lord, please lead me on the right path to reach You, and, since You know all that I have done in the past, please free me from the reactions to my past sins so that there will be no hindrance to my progress." (Īśopaniṣad 18) We should be very sincere in our service to God so that He will relieve us of the reactions of our karma. Unless there is a Supreme, what is the value of morality?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant would say that in his earthly life, a man should not be motivated toward moral conduct out of any expectation of happiness, but out of a sense of duty, or reverence for the moral law.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that means unmotivated service. It is not that we love Kṛṣṇa just to receive some benefit. It is our duty. That is pure morality. Knowing that we are part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, we should render service to Kṛṣṇa without ulterior motivation.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: The goal of Kant's personal ethics is twofold: it is a person's duty to attain his own perfection and also to seek the happiness of others.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. A Kṛṣṇa conscious man is not happy thinking, "I have now contacted Kṛṣṇa; therefore my business is finished." Other living entities are also part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa, but due to misguidance, they are not serving Him. Consequently, they are not attaining happiness. It is the duty of one who knows Kṛṣṇa to preach about Him out of mercy. Those who are satisfied just tending to their own personal spiritual life are not as highly elevated as those who try to enlighten others.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Pure practical reason, the free will's ability to choose, takes priority over pure speculative reason, or theorizing about reality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, it is not sufficient to merely understand that there is a God. We must render service to God. Our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means applying knowledge of Kṛṣṇa. If you are a devotee, you must demonstrate it. My Guru Mahārāja therefore condemned those who make a show of being devotees and spend all day and night within closed doors chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. Sometimes such people smoke and have illicit sex because they are not mature in their devotional service. A neophyte should work for Kṛṣṇa; otherwise he will simply be a showbottle. We have to spread Caitanya Mahāprabhu's teachings all over the world.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant concludes that self-realization is superior to mere philosophy.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is a practical demonstration of this. Since we know that we are the eternal servants of Kṛṣṇa, we engage in His service. Kṛṣṇa wants it to be known that He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. We may either accept this or not—that is all right with Kṛṣṇa—but it is our business to inform everyone that Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Lord and that everyone else is His eternal servant. If we enlighten people in this way, we are engaged in Kṛṣṇa's service. It is not that we go to church and ask God, "Give us our daily bread." God is giving bread daily to everyone, even to birds and beasts; therefore it is not practical to ask God for what He is already supplying. According to our Vaiṣṇava philosophy, we must work for Kṛṣṇa. We are not just theorizing, but practicing.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant rejected church-going as a means to salvation. He states that "sensuous representation of God is contrary to the command of reason: 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,' etc."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If someone imagines an image, that is not good. An image arises from the imagination. However, it is different to keep a photograph of your beloved. The photograph of your beloved is not imaginary. It is a fact.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Although rejecting prayer as an inner formal service to God, Kant believed that it is good to teach children to pray so that in their early years they might accustom themselves to a life pleasing to God.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Religion means pleasing God, and that is not restricted to children.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning the Christian belief in the resurrection of the body, Kant writes: "For who is so fond of his body that he would wish to drag it about with him through all eternity if he could get on without it?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is natural to want to retain one's body. Even though his life is abominable, a hog will cry when being captured or killed. He does not consider his body to be undesirable, although he is eating stool and living in a filthy place. It is natural to want to protect one's body perpetually, regardless of one's condition. This tendency is there because the living entity is eternal, and he is hankering after that eternity. It is his mistake to desire this eternity in a material body.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In his book Eternal Peace, Kant asserts that there can be peace in the world if certain laws are followed.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We often hear that peace can be attained, but it can be attained only when we understand that Kṛṣṇa is the factual proprietor of everything. We must accept Kṛṣṇa as our friend and understand that we are not the proprietors of anything. We must know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa if peace is to reign.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning government, Kant writes: "An ethical commonwealth can be thought of only as a people under divine commands, as a people of God....This would be a commonwealth wherein God would be the Lawgiver."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If the king or president and the people abide by the orders of God, the state will be ideal.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Kant's state would be theocratic in its constitution; however, since priests receive gifts from God directly, they would construct an aristocratic government.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: A theocratic government is properly outlined in Manu-saṁhitā, given by Manu for the benefit of all human society.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant believes that there should be a world state in which everyone can participate, and a system of international law regulating relationships between various nations or states.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is also our position, the proposition of the International Society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. There is one God, and there should be one state. If we can turn the majority of people to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they will vote for Kṛṣṇa conscious people, and they will not be exploited. The principles that we are following individually can be introduced on a larger scale.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Kant believes that the leaders should follow the moral principles, but he rejects Plato's idea that the philosophers should be kings. Rather, they should serve as advisors only. Then they will be able to exercise good judgment.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is also the Vedic system. The brāhmaṇas advise the kṣatriyas. If the brāhmaṇas are empowered and try to administer, their philosophical qualities will be diminished. They should remain free and act only as advisors.