Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961)

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung gave the following criticism of Sigmund Freud: "Sexuality evidently meant more to Freud than to other people. For him it was something to be religiously observed....One thing was clear; Freud, who had always made much of his irreligiosity, had now constructed a dogma, or rather, in the place of a jealous God whom he had lost, he had substituted another compelling image, that of sexuality."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact. He has taken sexuality to be God. It is our natural tendency to accept a leader, and Freud abandoned the leadership of God and took up the leadership of sex. In any case, we must have leadership. That is our position. In Russia, I pointed out that there is no difference in our philosophic processes. However, whereas they accept Lenin as their leader, we accept Kṛṣṇa. It is the nature of human beings to accept a leader. It is unfortunate that Freud lost God's leadership and took up instead the leadership of sex.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung concluded: "Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him. He remained unaware that his 'monotony of interpretation' expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical. So long as he refused to acknowledge that side, he could never be reconciled with himself."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that was because he was accepting the leadership of sexuality. If we accept the leadership of Kṛṣṇa, our life becomes perfect. All other leadership is māyā's leadership. There is no doubt that we have to accept a leader, and therefore he was constantly speaking about sex. Those who have taken God as their leader will speak only of God, nothing else. Jīvera 'svarūpa' haya—kṛṣṇera 'nitya-dāsa' (Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madh. 20.108) According to Caitanya Mahāprabhu's philosophy, we are all eternal servants of God, but as soon as we give up God's service, we have to accept the service of māyā.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Freud, the unconscious process, the id, was invariably animalistic and lawless, whereas for Jung, these unconscious energies were potentially sources of positive creative activity.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The subconscious state is covered by our present consciousness, and it can also be covered by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. In that case, the subconscious states will no longer be able to react. For instance, the subconscious sex drive is there, but because Yamunācārya, was in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he could overcome it. The subconscious experiences, which have been gathering for life after life, which are stored, as it were, will not be able to overcome the individual if he is fully Kṛṣṇa conscious.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung sees the mind as being composed of a balance of the conscious and the unconscious, or subconscious. It is the function of the personality to integrate these. For instance, if one has a strong sex drive, he can sublimate or channel that drive into creative art or religious activity.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is our process. The sex impulse is natural for everyone in the material world. If we think of Kṛṣṇa embracing Rādhārani, or dancing with the gopīs, our material sex impulse is sublimated and weakened. If we hear about the pastimes of Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs from the right source, lusty desire within the heart will be suppressed, and we will be able to develop devotional service. What we must understand is that Kṛṣṇa is the only puruṣa, enjoyer. If we help Him in His enjoyment, we also receive enjoyment. We are predominated, and He is the predominator. On the material platform, if a husband wants to enjoy his wife, the wife must voluntarily help him in that enjoyment. By helping him, the wife also becomes an enjoyer. The predominator, the enjoyer, is Kṛṣṇa, and the predominated, the enjoyed, are the living entities. Actually, both enjoy, but one enjoys as the predominated, and the other as the predominator. When the predominated helps the predominator, that is the perfection of enjoyment. We must admit that sex desire is present in everyone, both male and female, and from an impartial point of view, it appears that the male is the enjoyer and the female the enjoyed, but if the female agrees to be enjoyed, she naturally becomes the enjoyer. All living entities are described as prakṛti, female. Kṛṣṇa is puruṣa, male. When the living entities agree to help Kṛṣṇa's sex desire, they become enjoyers.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: What is meant by Kṛṣṇa's sex desire?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: You might more correctly say "sense enjoyment." Kṛṣṇa is the supreme proprietor of the senses, and when we help Kṛṣṇa in His sense enjoyment, we also naturally partake of it. The sweet rasagulla is to be enjoyed, and therefore the hand takes it and puts it into the mouth so that it can be tasted and go to the stomach. It is not that the hand tries to enjoy it directly. Kṛṣṇa is the only direct enjoyer; all others are indirect enjoyers. By satisfying Kṛṣṇa, we also satisfy others. We cannot possibly satisfy others directly. For instance, when a wife sees her husband eating and enjoying himself, she becomes happy. Upon seeing the predominator happy, the predominated becomes happy.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In the individual, should the unconscious state be predominated by the conscious?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is being done. Unconscious or subconscious states sometimes emerge; we are not always aware of them. But consciousness is always there. Actually, the word "unconscious" is not a good word because it implies a lack of consciousness. "Subconscious" is a better word.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Psychologists say that the unconscious or subconscious often acts through the conscious, but that we do not know it.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is what I am saying. The subconscious is there, but it is not always manifest. Sometimes it is suddenly manifest, just as a bubble will suddenly emerge in a pond. The energy was there within all the time, but suddenly it comes out, just like a bubble popping to the surface of the water. You may not be able to understand why it emerges, but it is assumed that it was in the subconscious state and then suddenly manifests. That subconscious state does not necessarily have any connection with our present consciousness. It is like a stored impression, a shadow, or a photograph. The mind takes many snapshots, and they are stored.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Does the subconscious mind think like the conscious mind?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, but the impressions are there, and they may suddenly come to the surface.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Jung, there are two types of subconscious states. One is the personal unconscious, consisting of those personal items stored from our individual childhood, a repressed history of stored impressions that can be aroused to consciousness in dreams and through psychoanalysis. The second is what Jung calls the collective unconscious, consisting of the collective experience of the race, archetypal images passed on from generation to generation, and common to men all over the globe.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, we might even call that tradition. Of course, we emphasize paramparā, which is different. Paramparā means receiving proper knowledge from the Supreme. This is not something archetypal. Archetypes may change, but the knowledge received from Kṛṣṇa is different. Spiritual knowledge imparted in Bhagavad-gītā is not knowledge coming from tradition. Rather, we learn it from a great authority like Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung could see that the soul is always longing for light, and he wrote of the urge within the soul to rise out of primal darkness, making note of the pent-up feelings in the eyes of primitive people, and even a certain sadness in the eyes of animals, "a poignant message which speaks to us out of that existence."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, every living entity, including man, is constitutionally a servant. Therefore everyone is seeking some master, and that is our natural propensity. You can often see a puppy attempt to take shelter of some boy or man, and that is his natural tendency. He is saying, "Give me shelter. Keep me as your friend." A child or a man also wants some shelter in order to be happy. That is our constitutional position. When we attain the human form, when our consciousness is developed, we should take Kṛṣṇa as our shelter and our leader. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa tells us that if we want shelter and guidance, we should take Him. "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender to Me." (Bg. 18.66) This is the ultimate instruction of Bhagavad-gītā.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung would say that our understanding of Kṛṣṇa as the Supreme Father and the cause of all causes is an archetypal understanding that is shared by all humans. People may represent Him in different ways, but the archetype is the same.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, it is exactly the same. Kṛṣṇa, or God, is the Supreme Father. A father has many sons, and all men are sons of God, born of their father. This is an experience common to everyone at all times.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: There are certain common archetypes in the dream life of all men, and even similar symbols found among the Incas of South America, or the Vaiṣṇavas of India, or inhabitants of the Pacific Islands. Could this be due to a common ancestry in the original Vedic culture?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Vedic culture or no Vedic culture, there are many similarities experienced in human existence. Because we are all living beings, the similarities are there. Every living being eats, sleeps, mates, fears, and dies. These are experiences common to everyone; therefore there must be similarities in representations, or whatever.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung believes that the unconscious sometimes emerges in the form of a superiority or inferiority complex, by which we react in inhibited or arrogant fashions.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: What are we? Inferior or superior? In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we consider ourselves servants of God. We are not guided by impulses or complexes; we are guided directly by the superior.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung states that there are two basic attitudes: extrovertive and introvertive.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The introvert is called a muni because he is introspective. The extrovert is generally guided by rajas, the mode of passion.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: The personality and behavior of a living entity are determined by the interaction between the unconscious and the conscious mind.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Full consciousness in Sanskrit is called jāgaraṇam. Dreaming is called svapnaḥ, and suṣuptiḥ refers to no consciousness, as in an anesthetized state.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung would call the dreaming state the unconscious also. The contents of the unconscious spill over into the conscious mind during dreams.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: I do not like the word "unconscious" because it implies lack of consciousness. When you are anesthetized, you are unconscious. In such a state, you can be cut open and not even know it. However, when you sleep or dream, a mere pinch will awake you. As I said before, "subconscious" is a better word.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Both Jung and Freud used the word "unconscious" to refer to the subconscious mind that determines our personality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: When the living entity is in the womb of the mother, he is unconscious. Death means remaining unconscious for seven or nine months. The living entity does not die; he simply remains unconscious for that duration. That is called suṣuptiḥ. When you have an operation, an anesthetic is administered, and you are unconscious for a period. When the anesthetic wears off, you emerge into the dream state. That dream state is actually a state of consciousness. When you dream, the mind works.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung believes that if we don't awaken to the many unconscious factors governing our personality, we will remain slaves to our unconscious life. The point of psychoanalysis is to reveal them to us and enable us to face them.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is what we are teaching. We say that presently the soul is in an unconscious state, and we are telling the soul, "Please wake up! You are not this body!" It is possible to awaken the human being, but other living entities cannot be awakened. A tree, for instance, has consciousness, but he is so packed in matter that you cannot raise him to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Jagadish Candra Bose proved that a tree feels pain when it is cut, although this pain is very slightly manifest. A human being, on the other hand, has developed consciousness, which is manifest in different stages. Lower life forms are more or less in a dream state, or unconscious.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In his autobiography, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, Jung writes: "I find that all my thoughts circle around God like the planets around the sun, and are as irresistibly attracted by Him. I would feel it to be the grossest sin if I were to oppose any resistance to this force." Jung also sees all creatures as parts of God, and at the same time unique in themselves. "Like every other being," he writes, "I am a splinter of the infinite Deity...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is also our philosophy that we are part and parcel of God, just as sparks are part of a fire.

Hayagrīva dāsa: "It was obedience which brought me grace," he writes. "One must be utterly abandoned to God; nothing matters but fulfilling His will. Otherwise all is folly and meaningless."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Very good. Surrender unto God is real spiritual life. Sarva dharmān parityajya (Bg. 18.66). Surrender to God means accepting that which is favorable to God and rejecting that which is unfavorable. The devotee is always convinced that God will give him all protection. He remains humble and meek, and thinks of himself as one of the members of God's family. This is real spiritual communism. Communists think, "I am a member of a certain community," but it is man's duty to think, "I am a member of God's family." God is the Supreme Father, material nature is the mother, and living entities are all sons of God.

There are living entities everywhere: on land, and in the air, and water. There is no doubt that material nature is the mother, and according to our experience, we can understand that a mother cannot produce a child without a father. It is absurd to think that a child can be born without a father. A father must be there, and the Supreme Father is God. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness, a person understands that the creation is a spiritual family headed by one Supreme Father.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung writes: "According to the Bible. ..God has a personality and is the ego of the universe, just as I myself am the ego of my psychic and physical being."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, the individual is conscious of his own body, but not the bodies of others. Beside the individual soul, or consciousness in the body, there is the Paramātmā, the Supersoul, the super consciousness present in everyone's heart. This is discussed in Bhagavad-gītā:

"O scion of Bharata, you should understand that I am also the knower in all bodies, and to understand this body and its owner is called knowledge. That is My opinion. " (Bg. 13.3)

Hayagrīva dāsa: Recalling his difficulties in understanding God's personality, Jung writes: "Personality, after all, surely signifies character...certain specific attributes. But if God is everything, how can He still possess a distinguishable character...? Moreover, what kind of character or what kind of personality does He have? Everything depends on that, for unless one knows the answer, one cannot establish a relationship with Him."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: God's character is transcendental, not material. He also has many attributes. For instance, He is very kind to His devotees, and this kindness may be considered one of His characteristics or attributes. He also has unlimited qualities, and sometimes He is described according to these transcendental qualities. His qualities, however, are permanent. Whatever qualities or characteristics we have are but minute manifestations of God's. God is the origin of all attributes and characteristics. As indicated in the śāstras, He also has a mind, senses, feelings, sense perception, sense gratification, and everything else. Everything is there unlimitedly, and since we are part and parcel of God, we possess His qualities in minute quantities. The original qualities in God are manifest minutely in ourselves. According to the Vedas, God is a person just like us, but His personality is unlimited. Just as my consciousness is limited to this body, and His consciousness is super consciousness within everybody, so I am a person confined to this particular body, and He is the super person living within all. As Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna in Bhagavad-gītā, the personality of God and that of the individual are eternally existing.

"Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." (Bg. 2.12) Both God and the living entity are persons, but God's personality is unlimited, and the individual personality is limited. God has unlimited power, strength, influence, knowledge, beauty, and renunciation. We have limited, finite power, knowledge, influence, and so on. That is the difference between the two personalities.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Seeing that philosophies and theologies could not give him a clear picture of God's personality, Jung concludes: "What is wrong with these philosophers? I wondered. Evidently they know of God only by hearsay."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also our complaint. None of the philosophers we have discussed has given us any clear idea of God. Because they are speculating, they cannot give concrete, clear information. As far as we are concerned, our understanding of God is clear because we receive the information given by God Himself to the world. Kṛṣṇa is accepted as the Supreme Person by Vedic authorities; therefore we should have no reason not to accept Him as such. Nārāyaṇa, Lord Śiva, and Lord Brahmā possess different percentages of God's attributes, but Kṛṣṇa possesses all the attributes cent per cent, in totality. Rūpa Gosvāmī has analyzed this in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu, which we have translated as The Nectar of Devotion. God is a person, and if we study the attributes of man, we can also know something of God's. Just as we enjoy ourselves with friends, parents, and others, God also enjoys Himself in various relationships. There are five primary and seven secondary relationships that the living entities can have with God. Since we take pleasure in these relationships, God is described as akhila-rasāmṛta-sindhu, the reservoir of all pleasure. There is no need to speculate about God, or try to imagine Him. The process for understanding is described in Bhagavad-gītā:

"Now hear, O son of Pṛthā, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." (Bg. 7.1) You can learn about God by always keeping yourself under His protection, or under the protection of His representative. Then, without a doubt, you can perfectly understand God. Otherwise, there is no question of understanding Him.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung continues: "At least they (the theologians) are sure that God exists, even though they make contradictory statements about Him....God's existence does not depend on our proofs....I understand that God was, for me at least, one of the most certain and immediate of experiences."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a transcendental conviction. One may not know God, but it is very easy to understand that God is there. We have to learn about God's nature, but there is no doubt that God is there. Any sane man can understand that he is being controlled. So, who is that controller? The supreme controller is God. This is the conclusion of a sane man. Jung is right when he says that God's existence does not depend on our proof.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Recalling his early spiritual quests, Jung writes: "In my darkness...I could have wished for nothing better than a real, live guru, someone possessing superior knowledge and ability, who would have disentangled from me the involuntary creations of my imagination...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, according to Vedic instructions, we must have a guru in order to acquire perfect knowledge.

"In order to learn the transcendental science, one must approach the bona fide spiritual master in disciplic succession, who is fixed in the Absolute Truth." (Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad 1.2.12) The guru must factually be a representative of God. He must have seen and experienced God in fact, not simply in theory. We have to approach such a guru, and by service, surrender, and sincere inquiry, we can come to understand what is God. The Vedas inform us that a person can understand God when he has received a little mercy from His Lordship; otherwise, he may speculate for millions and millions of years. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti. "One can understand the Supreme Personality as He is only by devotional service." (Bg. 18.55) This process of bhakti includes śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ, hearing and chanting about Lord Viṣṇu and always remembering Him. Satataṁ kīrtayanto māṁ (Bg. 9.14). The devotee is always glorifying the Lord. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam says:

"O best of the great personalities, I am not at all afraid of material existence, for wherever I stay I am fully absorbed in thoughts of Your glories and activities. My concern is only for the fools and rascals who are making elaborate plans for material happiness and maintaining their families, societies, and countries. I am simply concerned with love for them." (Bhāg. 7.9.43) The devotee's consciousness is always immersed in the ocean of the pastimes and unlimited activities of the Supreme Lord. That is transcendental bliss. The spiritual master trains his disciple to remain always in the ocean of God consciousness. One who works under the directions of the ācārya knows everything about God.

Hayagrīva dāsa: When in Calcutta in 1938, Jung met some celebrated gurus, but generally avoided so-called holymen. "I did so because I had to make do with my own truth," he writes, "not to accept from others what I could not attain on my own."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: On the one hand, he says he wants a guru, and then on the other, he doesn't want to accept one. Doubtless, there are many cheating gurus in Calcutta, and Jung might have seen some bogus gurus he did not like. In any case, the principle of accepting a guru cannot be avoided. It is absolutely necessary.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning consciousness after death, Jung feels that the individual must pick up the level of consciousness which he left.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, and therefore according to that consciousness, we have to accept a body. That is the process of the soul's transmigration. An ordinary person can see only the gross material body, but accompanying this body is the mind, intelligence, and ego. When the body is finished, these remain, although they cannot be seen. A foolish man thinks that everything is finished at death, but the soul carries the mind, intelligence, and ego—that is, the subtle body—with it into another body. This is confirmed by Bhagavad-gītā: na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. "He is not slain when the body is slain." (Bg. 2.20)

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung believes that individual consciousness cannot supersede world consciousness. He writes: "If there were to be a conscious existence after death, it would, so it seems to me, have to continue on the level of consciousness attained by humanity, which in any age has an upper thought variable limit."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: It is clearly explained in Bhagavad-gītā that although the body is destroyed, the consciousness continues. According to one's consciousness, he acquires another body, and again in that body, the consciousness begins to mold its future lives. If a person were a devotee in his past life, he would again become a devotee after his death. Once the material body is destroyed, the same consciousness begins to work in another body. Consequently, we find that some people quickly accept Kṛṣṇa consciousness, whereas others take a longer time. Bahūnāṁ janmanām ante (Bg. 7.19) This indicates that the consciousness is continuing, although the body is changing. Bharata Mahārāja, for instance, changed many bodies, but his consciousness continued, and he remained fully Kṛṣṇa conscious. We may see a person daily, but we cannot visualize his intelligence. We can understand that a person is intelligent, but we cannot see intelligence itself. When one talks, we can understand that there is intelligence at work. When the gross body is dead and no longer capable of talking, why should we conclude that the intelligence is finished? The instrument for speech is the gross body, but when the body is finished, we should not conclude that consciousness and intelligence are finished. After the destruction of the gross body, the mind and intelligence continue. Because they require a body to function, they develop a body, and that is the process of the soul's transmigration.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Still, what of Jung's contention that the individual's level of consciousness cannot supersede whatever knowledge is available on this planet?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, it can supersede, provided we acquire knowledge from authority. You may not have seen India, but a person who has seen India can describe it to you. We may not be able to see Kṛṣṇa, but we can learn of Him from an authority who knows. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa tells Arjuna that there is an eternal nature:

"Yet there is another nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is." (Bg. 8.20). On this earth, we encounter temporary nature. Here, things take birth, remain for some time, change, grow old, and are finally destroyed. There is dissolution in this material world, but there is another world in which there is no dissolution. We have no personal experience of this other world, but we can understand that it exists when we receive information from authority. It is not necessary to know it by personal experience. Parokṣāparokṣa. There are different stages of knowledge, and not all knowledge can be acquired by direct perception. That is not possible.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung believed in the importance of consciousness elevation. He writes: "Only here, in life on earth, can the general level of consciousness be raised. That seems to be man's metaphysical task...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, our consciousness should be developed. As stated in Bhagavad-gītā:

"The unsuccessful yogī, after many, many years of enjoyment on the planets of the pious living entities, is born into a family of righteous people, or into a family of rich aristocracy. Or he takes his birth in a family of transcendentalists who are surely great in wisdom. Verily, such a birth is rare in this world. On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success." (Bg. 6.41-43)

So if one's yoga practice is incomplete, or if he dies prematurely, his consciousness accompanies him, and in the next life, he begins at the point where he left off. His intelligence is revived. In an ordinary class, we can see that some students learn very quickly, while others cannot understand. This is evidence for the continuation of consciousness. If a person is extraordinarily intelligent, his previously developed consciousness is being revived. The fact that we have undergone previous births is also evidence for the immortality of the soul.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung speaks of the paradox of death: from the point of view of the ego, death is a horrible catastrophe, "a fearful piece of brutality." Yet from the point of view of the psyche, the soul, death is "...a joyful event. In the light of eternity, it is a wedding."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, death is horrible for one who is going to accept a lower form of life, and it is a pleasure for the devotee, because he is returning home, back to Godhead.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Death is not always a joyful event for the soul?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. How can it be? If one has not developed his spiritual consciousness, death is very horrible. The tendency in this life is to become very proud, and often people think, "I don't care for God. I am independent." Crazy people talk in this way, but after death, they have to accept a body according to the dictations of nature. Nature says, "My dear sir, since you have worked like a dog, you can become a dog. Since you have been surfing in the sea, you can now become a fish." These bodies are awarded according to a superior order.

"Under the supervision of the Supreme Lord and according to the result of his work, the living entity, the soul, is made to enter into the womb of a woman through the particle of male semina and to assume a particular type of body." (Bhāg. 3.31.1) When we are in touch with the modes of material nature, we are creating our next body. How can we stop this process? This is nature's way. If we are infected by some disease, we will necessarily get that disease. There are three modes of material nature—tamo-guṇa, rajo-guṇa, and sattva-guṇa—and our bodies are acquired according to our association with them. As far as the unsuccessful yogī is concerned, he is given a chance to revive his spiritual consciousness in his next life. In general, the human form affords us a chance to make progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, especially when we are born in an aristocratic, brāhmaṇa, or Vaiṣṇava family.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning saṁsāra, Jung writes: "The succession of birth and death is viewed [in Indian philosophy] as an endless continuity, as an eternal wheel rolling on forever without a goal. Man lives and attains knowledge and dies and begins again from the beginning. Only with the Buddha does the idea of a goal emerge, namely, the overcoming of earthly existence."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Overcoming earthly existence means entering into the spiritual world. The spirit soul is eternal, and it can pass from this atmosphere into another. That is clearly explained in Bhagavad-gītā:

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg. 4.9) Those who continue to revolve in the cycle of birth and death require another material body, but those who are Kṛṣṇa conscious go to Kṛṣṇa. They do not acquire another material body. Those who are not envious of Kṛṣṇa accept His instructions, surrender unto Him, and understand Him. For them, this is the last material birth. For those who are envious, however, transmigration is continuous.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning karma, Jung writes: "The crucial question is whether a man's karma is personal or not. If it is, then the preordained destiny with which a man enters life presents an achievement of previous lives, and a personal continuity therefore exists. If, however, this is not so, and an impersonal karma is seized upon in the act of birth, then that karma is incarnated again without there being any personal continuity."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Karma is always personal.

Hayagrīva dāsa: When Buddha was asked whether karma is personal or not, he avoided answering. He said that knowing this would not contribute to liberation from the illusion of existence.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Buddha refused to answer because he did not teach about the soul or accept the personal soul. As soon as you deny the personal aspect of the soul, there is no question of a personal karma. Buddha wanted to avoid this question. He did not want his whole philosophy dismantled.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung asks, "Have I lived before in the past as a specific personality, and did I progress so far in that life that I am now able to seek a solution?"

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is a fact.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung admits that he doesn't know.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā:

"On taking such a birth, he again revives the divine consciousness of his previous life, and he again tries to make further progress in order to achieve complete success, O son of Kuru." (Bg. 6.43)

Hayagrīva dāsa: "I could well imagine that I might have lived in former centuries and there encountered questions I was not yet able to answer," Jung writes. "I had to be born again because I had not fulfilled the task that was given to me."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is a fact.

Hayagrīva dāsa: "When I die, my deeds will follow along with me—that is how I imagine it."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is personal karma.

Hayagrīva dāsa: "I will bring with me what I have done," Jung concludes. "In the meantime it is important to insure that I do not stand at the end with empty hands."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: If you are making regular progress in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, your hands will not be empty at the end. Completeness means returning home, back to Godhead. This return is not empty. Because the Māyāvādīs cannot understand the positivity of God's kingdom, they try to make it empty. Eternal life with Kṛṣṇa is our aspiration. A Vaiṣṇava does not want emptiness. Since materialists are thinking that everything will be empty at the end of life, they conclude that they should enjoy themselves now as much as possible. Therefore sense enjoyment is at the core of material life, and materialists are mad after it.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung believes that we are reborn because we relapse again into desires, feeling that something remains to be completed. "In my case," he writes, "it must have been primarily a passionate urge toward understanding....for that was the strongest element in my nature. "

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That understanding for which he is longing is understanding of Kṛṣṇa. That is explained in Bhagavad-gītā:

"After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare." (Bg. 7.19) Our understanding is complete when we come to the point of understanding Kṛṣṇa. Then our material journey comes to an end. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti mām eti so'rjuna. "Upon leaving the body, he does not take birth again into this material world, but attains My eternal abode." (Bg. 4.9) Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself gives instructions by which He can be understood.

"Now hear, O son of Pṛthā, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt." (Bg. 7.1) If we can understand Kṛṣṇa completely, we will take our next birth in the spiritual world.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Concerning scripture, Jung writes: "The word of God comes to us, and we have no way of distinguishing to what extent it is different from God."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The word of God is not at all different from God. Since God is absolute, both He and His words are the same. God's name and God are the same. God's pastimes and God are the same. God's Deity and God are the same. Anything related to God is God. For instance, Bhagavad-gītā is God. Mayā tatam idam sarvaṁ (Bg. 9.4). Everything is God, and when we are complete in God realization, we can understand this. Otherwise we cannot. Everything is God, and without God, nothing can exist.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung conceived of the false ego in terms of persona. "The persona" he writes, "is the individual's system of adaptation to, or the manner he assumes in dealing with, the world....The persona is that which in reality one is not, but which oneself as well as others think one is.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Our real persona is that we are eternal servants of God. When we realize this, our persona becomes our salvation and perfection. The person must be there, but as long as we are in the material world, our persona identifies with our family, community, body, nation, ideal, and so on. The person is there and must continue, but proper understanding is realizing that we are eternal servants of Kṛṣṇa. As long as we are in the material world, we labor under the delusion of the false ego, thinking, "I am American. I am Russian. I am Hindu, etc." This is false ego at work. In reality, we are all servants of God. When we speak of false ego, we also admit a real ego, a purified ego, who understands that he is the servant of Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung envisioned the self as a personality composed of the conscious and also the subconscious. He writes: 'The self is not only the center but also the whole circumference which embraces both conscious and unconscious."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Everything depends on the personality, and it is the personality that is surrounded by so many conceptions. In conditional life, we may have many different types of dreams, but when we are purified—like Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu—we dream of Kṛṣṇa's pastimes. In the purified state, we dream about Kṛṣṇa and His activities and instructions.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Although the self can never be fully known by the individual, it does have individuality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We can know that we are individual persons with our own ideas and activities. The problem is purifying our ideas and activities. When we understand our role as servants of Kṛṣṇa, we are purified.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Jung, the purpose of psychoanalysis is to come to grips with our unconscious shadow personality in order to know completely who we are.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That means attaining real knowledge. When Sanātana Gosvāmī approached Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, he said, "Please reveal to me who and what I am." In order to understand our real identity, we require the assistance of a guru.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung says that in the shadow personality of all males, there is a bit of the female, and in all females there is a bit of the male. Because we repress these aspects of the shadow personality, we do not understand our actions.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We say that every living entity is by nature a female, prakṛti. Prakṛti means female, and puruṣa means male. In this material world, although we are prakṛti, we are posing ourselves as puruṣa. Because the jīvātmā, the individual soul, has the propensity to enjoy as a male, he is sometimes described as puruṣa, but actually the jīvātmā is not puruṣa. He is prakṛti. As I said before, prakṛti means dominated, and puruṣa means predominator. The only predominator is Kṛṣṇa; therefore originally we are all female by constitution.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: In the male species, at any rate, the temperament is different, isn't it? There is dominance and aggression.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: There is no different temperament. We can see that the female also has the same temperament because she wants to be treated equally, just like a man. In any case, the real position is that every living entity is originally female, but under illusion he attempts to become a male, an enjoyer. This is called māyā. Although a female by constitution, the living entity is trying to imitate the supreme male, Kṛṣṇa. When we come to our original consciousness, we understand that we are not the predominator but the predominated.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung noticed male and female characteristics reflected in nature. For instance, a mountain may be considered male because it is strong and dominant, whereas the sea is female because it is passive and is the womb of life.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: These are all mental concoctions. They have no real scientific value. You may imagine things like this, but the real identity of these things is different. Life is not generated from the ocean; rather, everything is generated from the breathing of Lord Viṣṇu, who lies in the causal ocean. If I am lying on this bed, and something emanates from my breathing, does this mean that something is emanating from the bed?

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But aren't there specific male and female characteristics?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The only male is God. Male means enjoyer, and female means enjoyed. But for God, no one is the enjoyer. Therefore He is the only male.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Then is it false to think of anything as masculine besides God?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Masculine is different. We speak of the masculine gender. The liṅga is the symbol of masculinity in the material body. In Bengali, it is said that one can tell if an animal is male or female simply by raising its tail. But these are material considerations. The real male is Kṛṣṇa.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: But couldn't you refer to the ocean as "mother ocean"?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: You may in the sense that the ocean contains so many living entities, just as the female contains a child within her womb. Or you may speak of a mountain as being male because of its strength and durability. In that sense, you may make these comparisons, but you should not think that these are the real identities of these things.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: For Jung, the soul, or self, is the center of organization within the personality, and seeks a harmonious balance between the conscious and the unconscious.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: When we speak of personality, we must admit the existence of the soul. Because you are a living entity, you have a separate identity called personality. Unless there is an individual soul, there is no possibility of personality.

Śyāmasundara dāsa: Jung said that the self is rarely completely balanced. But don't we say that the self is always stable?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, when the self is under the influence of māyā, he is not balanced. He is imbalanced and ignorant. His true consciousness is covered. When rain falls from the sky, it is clear, but as soon as it touches the earth, it becomes muddy. Originally, the soul's consciousness is clear, but when it comes in contact with the three modes of material nature, it is muddied.

Hayagrīva dāsa: "If the soul is anything," Jung writes, "it must be of unimaginable complexity and diversity, so that it cannot possibly be approached through a mere psychology of instinct."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: According to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, we can understand the soul through training. By negation, we can understand, "I am not this, I am not that." Then we can come to understand.

"I am not a brāhmaṇa, I am not a kṣatriya, I am not a vaiśya or a śūdra. Nor am I a brahmacārī, a householder, a vānaprastha, or a sannyāsī. I identify Myself only as the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the maintainer of the gopīs. He is like an ocean of nectar, and He is the cause of universal transcendental bliss. He is always existing with brilliance." (Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madh. 13.80) That is our real identification. As long as we do not identify ourselves as eternal servants of Kṛṣṇa, we will be subject to various false identifications. Bhakti, devotional service, is the means by which we can be purified of false identification.

Hayagrīva dāsa: "I can only gaze with wonder and awe at the depths and heights of our psychic nature," Jung writes. "Its non-spatial universe conceals an untold abundance of images which have accumulated over millions of years of living development and become fixed in the organism."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Since we are constantly changing bodies, constantly undergoing transmigration, we are accumulating various experiences. However, if we remain fixed in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we do not change. There is none of this fluctuation once we understand our real identification, which is, "I am the servant of Kṛṣṇa, and my duty is to serve Him." Arjuna realized this after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, and he told Śrī Kṛṣṇa:

"My dear Kṛṣṇa, O infallible one, my illusion is now gone. I have regained my memory by Your mercy, and I am now firm and free from doubt and am prepared to act according to Your instructions." (Bg. 18.73) So after hearing Bhagavad-gītā, Arjuna comes to this conclusion, and his illusion is dispelled by Kṛṣṇa's mercy. Arjuna is then fixed in his original position. And what is this? Kariṣye vacanaṁ tava. "Whatever you say, I will do." At the beginning of Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa told Arjuna to fight, and Arjuna refused. At the conclusion, Arjuna's illusion is dispelled, and he is situated in his original constitutional position. Thus our perfection lies in executing the orders of Kṛṣṇa.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung classifies five types of rebirth. One is metempsychosis, by which "...one's life is prolonged in time by passing through different bodily existences; or, from another point of view, it is a life-sequence interrupted by different reincarnations....It is by no means certain whether continuity of personality is guaranteed or not: there may be only a continuity of karma."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: A personality is always there, and bodily changes do not affect it. However, one identifies himself according to his body. When the soul, for instance, is within the body of a dog, he thinks according to that particular bodily conception. He thinks, "I am a dog, and I have my particular duty." In human society, when one is born in America, for instance, he thinks, "I am an American, and I have my duty." According to the body, the personality is manifest, but in all cases, personality is there.

Hayagrīva dāsa: But is this personality continuous?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Certainly the personality is continuous. At death, the same soul passes into another gross body, along with its mental and intellectual identifications. The individual acquires different types of bodies, but the person is the same.

Hayagrīva dāsa: This would correspond to what Jung calls reincarnation, the second type of rebirth: "This concept of rebirth necessarily implies the continuity of personality," he writes. "Here the human personality is regarded as continuous and accessible to memory, so that when one is incarnated or born, one is able, at least potentially, to remember that he has lived through previous existences and that these existences were one's own, i.e., that they had the same ego-form as the present life. As a rule, reincarnation means rebirth in a human body."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Not necessarily into a human body. From Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, we learn that Bharata Mahārāja became a deer in his next life, and after being a deer, he became a brāhmaṇa. The soul is changing bodies just as a man changes his dress. The man is the same, although his dress may be different.

"As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, similarly, the soul accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones." (Bg. 2.22) When a dress is old and cannot be used anymore, one has to exchange it for another. In a sense, you purchase a new dress with the money, or karma, you have accumulated in your life. The man is the same, but his dress is supplied according to the price he can pay. According to your karma, you receive a certain type of body.

Hayagrīva dāsa: For Jung, the third type of rebirth, called resurrection, may be of two types: "It may be a carnal body, as in the Christian assumption that this body will be resurrected." That is, according to Christian doctrine, at the end of the world, the gross bodies will reassemble themselves and ascend into heaven, or descend into hell.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: And what will the person do in the meantime?

Hayagrīva dāsa: I don't know. Obviously the material elements disperse.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The material body is finished, but the spiritual body is always there. This type of resurrection talked about is applicable to God and His representatives, not to all. In this case, it is not a material body, but a spiritual one. When God appears, He appears in a spiritual body, and this body does not change. In Bhagavad-gītā, Kṛṣṇa says that He spoke to the sun god millions of years ago, and Arjuna questioned how this could be possible. Kṛṣṇa replies that although Arjuna had been present, he could not remember. Remembrance is possible only if one does not change bodies. Changing bodies means forgetting.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung admits that on a higher level, the process is not material. "It is assumed that the resurrection of the dead is the raising up of the corpus gloriaficationis, the subtle body, in the state of incorruptibility."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is the spiritual body, which never changes. According to the Māyāvādī conception, the Absolute Truth is impersonal, and when He comes as a person, He accepts a material body. Those who are advanced in spiritual knowledge, who accept the Bhagavad-gītā, understand that this is not the case.

"Fools deride Me when I descend in the human form. They do not know My transcendental nature and My supreme dominion over all that be." (Bg. 9.11) Because Kṛṣṇa appears like a human being, the unintelligent think that He is nothing but a human being. They have no knowledge of the spiritual body.

Hayagrīva dāsa: The fourth form of rebirth is called renovatio, and this refers to "the transformation of a mortal into an immortal being, of a corporeal into a spiritual being, and of a human into a divine being." As an example, Jung cites the ascension of Christ into heaven.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: We say that the spiritual body never dies, and the material body is subject to destruction. Nāyaṁ hanti na hanyate (Bg. 2.19). After the material body's destruction, the "spiritual body is still there. It is neither generated nor killed.

Hayagrīva dāsa: But aren't there examples of a kind of ascension into heaven? Didn't Arjuna ascend?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, and Yudhiṣṭhira. There are many instances. The special instance is Kṛṣṇa Himself and His associates. But we should never consider their bodies material. They didn't go through death of any sort, although their bodies traveled to the higher universe. But it is also a fact that everyone possesses a spiritual body.

Hayagrīva dāsa: The fifth type of rebirth is indirect, like an initiation ceremony, or the twice-born ceremony of transformation. "Through his presence at the rite, the individual participates in divine grace."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, one's first birth is by his father and mother, and the next birth is by the spiritual master and Vedic knowledge. When one takes his second birth, he comes to understand that he is not the material body. That is spiritual education. That birth of knowledge, or birth into knowledge, is called dvijaḥ.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In one of his last books, The Undiscovered Self, Jung writes: "The meaning and purpose of religion lie in the relationship of the individual to God (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) or to the path of salvation and liberation (Buddhism). From this basic fact all ethics is derived, which without the individual's responsibility before God can be called nothing more than conventional morality."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: First of all, we understand from Bhagavad-gītā that no one can approach God without being purified of all sinful reactions. Only one who is standing on the platform of pure goodness can understand God and engage in His service. From Arjuna, we understand that God is paraṁ brahma paraṁ dhāma pavitraṁ paramaṁ bhavān (Bg. 10.12). He is the Supreme Brahman, the ultimate, the supreme abode and purifier. Paraṁ-brahma indicates the Supreme Brahman. Every living being is Brahman spiritually, but Kṛṣṇa is the Paraṁ-brahma, the Supreme Brahman. He is also paraṁ-dhāma, the ultimate abode of everything. And pavitraṁ paramaṁ, the purest of the pure. In order to approach the purest of the pure, one must become completely pure, and to this end, morality and ethics are necessary. Therefore in our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, we prohibit illicit sex, meat eating, intoxication, and gambling, the four pillars of sinful life. If we can avoid these, we can remain on the platform of purity. Kṛṣṇa consciousness is based on this morality, and one who cannot follow these principles falls down from the spiritual platform. Purity is the basic principle of God consciousness, and is essential for the reestablishment of our eternal relationship with God.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes: "The state has taken the place of God; that is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, I agree with him. Atheistic Communism has contributed to the degradation of human civilization. The Communists supposedly believe in the equal distribution of wealth. According to our understanding, God is the Father, material nature the mother, and living entities the sons. The sons have a right to live at the cost of the father. The entire universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and living entities are being supported by the Supreme Father.

However, we should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to us. According to Īśopaniṣad, tena tyaktena bhuñjīthā (Īśopaniṣad 1). We should be satisfied with our allocation, and not envy another or encroach upon his property. We should not envy the capitalists or the wealthy because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore everyone should be satisfied with what he receives. On the other hand, no one should exploit others. One may be born in a wealthy family, but he should not interfere with the rights of others. Whether one is rich or poor, he should be God conscious, accept God's arrangement, and serve God to his fullest. This is the philosophy of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, and it is confirmed by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. We should be content with our allocations from God, and concern ourselves with advancing in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. If we become envious of the rich, we will be tempted to encroach upon their allotment, and in this way we are diverted from our service to the Lord. The main point is that everyone, rich or poor, should engage in God's service. If everyone does so, there will be real peace in the world.

Hayagrīva dāsa: In the socialist state, the goals of religion are turned into worldly promises of bread, "the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is because they have no understanding of spiritual life, nor can they understand that the person within the body is eternal and spiritual. Therefore they recommend immediate sense gratification.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung believed, however, that Marxism cannot possibly replace religion. "A natural function which has existed from the beginning... cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The Communists are concerned with adjusting material things that can never be adjusted. They imagine that they can solve problems, but ultimately their plans will fail. The Communists do not understand what religion is. It is not possible to avoid religion. Everything has a particular characteristic. Salt is salty, sugar is sweet, and chili is hot and pungent. These are intrinsic characteristics. Similarly, the living entity has an intrinsic quality. His characteristic is to render service, be he a Communist, a theist, a capitalist, or whatever. In all countries, people are working and rendering service to their respective governments—be they capitalists or Communists—and the people are not profiting. Therefore we say that if people follow the footsteps of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu by serving Kṛṣṇa, they will be happy. In the material world, people are rendering service, and they are not happy doing so because their service is actually meant for Kṛṣṇa. Therefore, for the sake of happiness, people should individually and collectively render service to Kṛṣṇa. When that service is misplaced, we are never happy. Both Communists and capitalists are saying, "Render service to me," but Kṛṣṇa says, sarva-dharmān parityajya (Bg. 18.66). "Just render Me service, and I will free you from all sinful reactions."

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung feels that materialistic capitalism cannot possibly defeat a pseudo-religion like Marxism. The only solution is to adopt a nonmaterialistic religion. "The antidote should in this case be an equally potent faith of a different and nonmaterialistic kind...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That religion is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with any materialistic "ism," and this movement is directly connected with Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God demands complete surrender, and we are teaching, "You are servants, but your service is being wrongly placed. Therefore you are not happy. Just render service to Kṛṣṇa, and you will find happiness." We neither support Communism nor capitalism, nor do we advocate the adoption of pseudo religions. We are for Kṛṣṇa only.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung laments the absence of a potent nonmaterialistic faith in the West that "could block the progress of a fanatical ideology" like Marxism. He sees mankind as desperately in need of a religion that has immediate meaning.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That nonmaterial religion which is above everything—Marxism and capitalism—is this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. If we cultivate Kṛṣṇa consciousness, we will transcend sinful reactions and make spiritual progress. Janma karma ca me divyam (Bg. 4.9). Kṛṣṇa says that just by knowing of His transcendental appearance and pastimes, we will not take birth in this material world again.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung writes: "It is unfortunately only too clear that if the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: True, the basis of change is the individual. Now there are a few disciples individually initiated into Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and if a large percentage can thus become invigorated, the face of the world will change. There is no doubt of this.

Hayagrīva dāsa: For Jung, the salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. "His individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, those who seriously take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness are never troubled by Marxism, this-ism, or that-ism. A Marxist may take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but a Kṛṣṇa conscious devotee would never become a Marxist. That is not possible. It is explained in Bhagavad-gītā that when one knows the highest perfection of life, he cannot be misled by a third or fourth-class philosophy.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung also felt that materialistic progress could be a possible enemy to the individual. "A favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside," he writes, "even that metamorphosis which external reality cannot provide, mainly, a deep-seated change of the inner man...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes everything originates from inside, from the soul. It is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and others that material progress is essentially an expansion of the external energy, māyā, illusion. We are all living in illusion, and so-called scientists and philosophers cannot even understand God and their relationship to Him, despite their material advancement. Material advancement and knowledge are actually hindrances to the progressive march of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. To live a saintly life, we minimize our necessities. We are not after luxurious living. We feel that life is meant for spiritual progress and Kṛṣṇa consciousness, not for material advancement.

Hayagrīva dāsa: To inspire this deep-seated change in the inner man, Jung feels that a proper teacher is needed, someone to explain religion.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, according to the Vedic injunction, it is essential to seek out a guru, who, by definition, is a representative of God. Sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstrair (Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka 7). The representative of God is worshipped as God, but he never says, "I am God." Although he is worshipped as God, he is the servant of God. God Himself is always master. Caitanya Mahāprabhu requested everyone to become a guru. "Whatever you are, it doesn't matter. Simply become a guru and deliver all these people who are in ignorance." One may say, "I am not very learned. How can I become a guru?" Caitanya Mahāprabhu said that it is not necessary to be a learned scholar, for there are many so-called learned scholars who are fools. It is only necessary to impart Kṛṣṇa's instructions, which are already there in Bhagavad-gītā. Whoever explains Bhagavad-gītā as it is is a guru by definition. If one is fortunate enough to approach such a guru, his life becomes successful.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung points out that "our philosophy is no longer a way of life, as it was in antiquity; it has turned into an exclusively intellectual and academic affair."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is also our opinion. Mental speculation has no value in itself. We must be directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and, using all reason, assimilate the instructions given by Him. We can then follow these instructions in our daily life and do good to others by teaching Bhagavad-gītā.

Hayagrīva dāsa: He sees on the one hand an exclusively intellectual philosophy, and on the other, denominational religions with "archaic rites and conceptions," which have "become strange and unintelligible to the man of today...."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: That is because preachers of religion are simply dogmatic. They have no clear idea of God; they make only official proclamations. When one does not understand, he cannot make others understand. But there is no such vanity in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, which is clear in every respect. This is the expected movement Mr. Jung wanted. Every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.

Hayagrīva dāsa: He describes the truly religious man as one "who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end."

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the natural situation. What decisions can we make? Since there is already a controller over us, how can we be absolute? Everyone should depend on the supreme controller and fully surrender to Him.

Hayagrīva dāsa: Jung feels that modern man should ask himself, "Have I any religious experience and immediate relation to God, and hence that certainty which will keep me, as an individual, from dissolving in the crowd?" Our relationship with God ultimately assures our own individuality.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: Yes, all living entities are individuals, and God is the supreme individual. According to the Vedic version, all individuals are subordinate to Him. Nityo nityānāṁ cetanaś cetanānām (Kaṭha-upaniṣad 2.2.13). The supreme individual is one, and the subordinate are many. The supreme individual is maintaining His subordinates, just as a father maintains his family. When the children learn to enjoy their father's property without encroaching upon one another, accepting what is allotted them, they will attain peace.

Hayagrīva dāsa: That ends our session on Jung.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: So far, he seems the most sensible.

(A note on Sanskrit Pronunciation:

GLOSSARY

ABOUT THE AUTHOR